Time to regulate public charging infrastructure?

There have been a number of threads recently about frustrations with privately owned public charging infrastructure. These include (lack of) interoperability of membership cards, station reliability, the fact that many effectively hold a deposit, high and illogical charging cost, and so on.

I'm starting to wonder if we need a little push to make sense of the wild west of public charging, at least in places where there is significant build out. California, where I live, seems like it's ripe, for reasons over and above the problems I list above. The main one is that there has been, and continues to be enormous investment of public and quasi-public funds in the infrastructure build-out.

These include:

-stimulus funding
-local air district funding
-settlement of lawsuits related to power company malfeasance in the 2001 power crisis
-and now, major IOUs (at least PG&E, can other members weigh in about SCE/SMUD/SDG&E?) have been given the go-ahead by the PUC to charge all ratepayers in order to build out its own charging infrastructure.

Especially with a utility owning and operating public charging infrastructure, it seems to me that regulation by the PUC, or legislation to allow regulation of all stations makes sense.

I'd be interested in reactions. For those who think it's a good idea, how would you implement it. For those who think it's a bad idea, why? It would be most helpful to target your reactions to the fact pattern above. I certainly understand that in other places with much less public infrastructure, and less public investment, the time may be far from ripe to move forward with any sort of serious regulation.

Generally, more regulation is a bad idea. (Yes, I'm both an environmentalist and a conservative - a rare creature.)

You suggest that since some public utilities are getting into the public charging infrastructure business, that it should be regulated as a utility? Utilities are regulated because they are necessary monopolies. If that concept is applied to the charging business, then Tesla could get kicked out because they are not a utility. And yes, the utilities that have influence over the regulatory bodies could probably get the wording crafted in such a fashion to pull that off. For example, look at all the obstacles they've been able to put in to raise the cost of homeowners installing solar.

You also suggest that regulation is needed because of high costs for charging. Regulated utilities get virtually guaranteed returns on investments. The more the spend, the more profit they make. That is part of why they fight so hard against solar. Home solar cuts demand for new power plants, which requires investment, which increases their profits. They would get the regulation crafted (see above paragraph) to ensure that they get a nice profit from any charging infrastructure investment they make. Currently, if the station isn't reliable, it cuts their revenue, which cuts profit. But under typical utility regulation, not so. Simply making the investment will provide the profit and reliability could suffer. When you add regulation, costs usually go up, not down.

You seem to acknowledge that regulation can stifle development, hence your comment that it shouldn't be done in areas that aren't adequately built out yet. But then you indicate California would be a place to regulate since we have more infrastructure in place. Odd. I haven't seen many indications that California has anywhere near adequate build out and I think we are still a long way from that point.

I could probably go on, but it is getting late and I have work tomorrow. So enough ranting for now.

DarthPuppy said:

I could probably go on, but it is getting late and I have work tomorrow. So enough ranting for now.

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Thank you for your thoughts.

I thought California had enacted a requirement that all public charging were required to allow universal payment (credit card) in addition to any membership cards. I support that type of legislation because it opens the marketplace instead of making it more restrictive. The Tower of Babel thing where people have to carry a dozen cards and fobs, just doesn't work in the public interest.

Nubo said:

I thought California had enacted a requirement that all public charging were required to allow universal payment (credit card) in addition to any membership cards.

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I wonder if a smart phone app would suffice?
A large enough percentage of the population has smart phones, that it might be universal, for all intents and purposes.
I've never used the "Pay with Plugshare" option, but can imagine that something like that would be pretty universal...

I hate the multiple cards/fobs myself (have 5), but as annoying as it is, it's not the highest on my list for possible regulation.
I think possibly requiring a percentage of charging spots in in parking areas (apartments, malls, work/public parking lots??) might be more useful.. Of course, there are LOTS of issues around there, so I'm not saying it's a good deal, but..

I don't live in an apartment, but I can see how living in an apartment without viable charging would be a show stopper for a good percentage of possible buyers..

desiv

IMHO the biggest road block to wide-spread use and acceptance of public charging is the cost. I know for me I would not charge anywhere but home unless I absolutely have to, even when the charging station is free, such as the L-2 at the dealers. I did use the L-3's at the dealer when they were free, but finally one day I realized that after i drove out of my way to "top off" on the L-3, I had spent over half an hour to get what would have cost me only about $1.00 at home. My time is worth more than that.

Where we could use public L-3 is using the Leaf on more trips out of the local area. But with the charges now in place, it is more expensive than driving an ICE, in both money and in TIME.

The way I see it, the only way an EV could be used for travel outside of local area is if a network of L-3 stations were set up along Interstate and major highways. Even then, all the electricity that is used needs to be provided by the local utility at the "Lowest" rate used by the utility. Currently not only do the utilities charge the L-3 operator a high commercial rate, but they also pay a "demand" charge that is upwards of several thousand dollars each month. That is a lot of cost to pass on to the EV driver, plus they need to charge extra for maintenance and profit.

When our leaf was only one month old we took it on a 230 mile round-trip. For us it was an adventure, so it was an all day thing. When we take this trip in our ICE we do the drive in a total of just over 3 hours R/T, 1.5 hours each way. We get just over 30 mpg so the gas is about $20 to 25. In the Leaf the electricity was free (charged at Nissan dealers), but the time was much greater. It was about 10 hours driving and charging. We kept our top speed below 60 mph to give us greater range, but looking back on it we should have limited speed to 55 mph.

To sum up, the Leaf is great for local use and charging in my garage every time I get home gives me more than enough range. All trips are with the ICE. Public charging is not needed for us. Now for those without access to a plug at home or work, public is all that they can use.

Cost to charge should be universally required to be by the kWh. Premiums for speed or location can be built into that and market competition can control it once enough stations exist.

Regulating in that charging stations must accept credit cards is problematic. Again, regulators tend to ignore other regulatory authorities when they make their rules. I don't know which rule, but I understand that there is a Cal-OSHA rule that if followed, means you are not in compliance with a Federal rule and vice-versa. So no matter what you do, you are technically subject to prosecution if your business is impacted by one of those rules.

In this case, this requirement ignores the credit card industries rules, which are in the process of switching to chip and pin as well as make a real headache for businesses with unattended terminals. So now are the charging stations to have manned security 24/7? So much for low cost. If not, if any skimming is done, the liability is huge - again more cost to burden the system/customer. Or the stations will not be available for use outside of business hours. So much for infrastructure accessibility and usability of EVs after hours.

Oh and by the way, any stations installed prior to last year with credit card capability would soon have to be replaced with ones that can read the chip and take a pin. Hopefully, they can be upgraded rather than replaced, but not sure how many stations were designed modularly. Oops for anybody who invested early.

While it would be nice if anyone with a credit card could use a station conveniently, there are real issues with implementing that. And ill-advised legislators routinely pass bad laws. So I wouldn't be surprised if charging station owners are now in a situation where they are either in violation of California or in violation of credit card rules. If that is the case, I wouldn't view that as encouraging businesses to get involved with providing charging stations.

DNAinaGoodWay said:

Cost to charge should be universally required to be by the kWh. Premiums for speed or location can be built into that and market competition can control it once enough stations exist.

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The problem I always have with that is that it has no mechanism built in that pushes an owner to leave the station ASAP to open it for another user. If any regulation, I would rather see something like to park there you must be plugged in and you are charged as long as you are parked there (like parking meters the world over). Rates for time can vary for speed, location, etc. (like you suggest) but are clearly posted on the station.

I know that different cars charge at different rates and that varies over time including as the vehicle's SOC changes so kWhs delivered very over time... I say so what, that can't be controlled. What's most important (IMHO) is to work on availability of the limited stations that do exist and to encourage more to be installed. Letting a station be blocked for hours and hours after a car has fully charged keeping others from using it is ridiculous (and costly to the station owner). Vehicle owners will move their car when they have whatever they consider "enough charge" if sitting there keeps costing them.

P.S. This has the added advantage of reducing ICE blocking of charging spaces if such spaces are always "metered" and subject to towing if a vehicles is parked there and not connected.

I could accept that too. Thought I read somewhere that there are already some stations that assess fees for parking/connection after the session ends. I've used some stations where the fee is prorated by the minute, after a set minimum, and that would move people along too. Get what you need and get out. It's those stations that charge by the hour, or half hour blocks, that can be a bottleneck.

Sadly, I've seen EVs camped in charging spots in crowded parking lots, not even plugged in. Some view it as a reserved parking space for them and don't seem to mind blocking others from charging. :x

As much as I dislike ICEd charging spots, EV drivers should know better. :roll:

I have yet to see a public charging spot where the charging station was aware, let alone controlled who parked there or for how long. And I also foresee problems if we try to merge charging stations with parking enforcement meters. So now there are three failure points for the stations that might require 3 different service techs to resolve - one for the charging apparatus, one for the credit card processing, and one for the parking meter system. Sounds like a lot of downtime to me with finger pointing added in.

DarthPuppy said:

Sounds like a lot of downtime to me with finger pointing added in.

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Which is why station owners (and not government) should be doing the enforcement. They are the ones with vested interest. But if you don't let them charge by time, or give them the authority to tow blocking vehicles away, it won't work.

I think utilities should be regulated to provide charging solutions to multi unit dwellings (apartments). I don't think any traditional private business or even the property owner is going to have the capital and tolerance for very low return on investment.

JeremyW said:

I think utilities should be regulated to provide charging solutions to multi unit dwellings (apartments). I don't think any traditional private business or even the property owner is going to have the capital and tolerance for very low return on investment.

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I am still waiting patiently for one of my tenants to ask for an EVSE. Just a small operation but still.

I live on Long Island, New York. At this time, I don't give a hoot about "regulation". I charge at the charge point stations, which are free at this time, and I have had no problems with my ID card to get charges. The problem with charging stations here in new York is that there are not enough of them.

I feel they should be "de-regulated" and their numbers increased so that EV drivers, and the general public can see that electric cars are here to stay and are getting more popular. Right now, I would say that on long island, there are stations every 5-10 miles, which does not make sense unless you are planning to stay in that area for a while. That is why there are few (in my observation) EVs using the charging stations.

There should be legislations for tax breaks for every school, bank, supermarket, shopping center, library, etc. to boldly display that they have a charging stations there... Then there will be more incentives for current EV drivers to use the charging stations, and potential new drivers to see the convenience of "gassing up" while you go to the supermarket!. As an example, Remember when cash machines were new? You had to have an account at that bank, and you had to be lucky enough to have the bank with a cash machine near you..... Now there are cash machines everywhere, and they are all interconnected anywhere you go... THAT is the regulation we need, to increase users, and then the cost will also be lower for everyone...

powersurge said:

I live on Long Island, New York. At this time, I don't give a hoot about "regulation". I charge at the charge point stations, which are free at this time, and I have had no problems with my ID card to get charges. The problem with charging stations here in new York is that there are not enough of them.

I feel they should be "de-regulated" and their numbers increased so that EV drivers, and the general public can see that electric cars are here to stay and are getting more popular. Right now, I would say that on long island, there are stations every 5-10 miles, which does not make sense unless you are planning to stay in that area for a while. That is why there are few (in my observation) EVs using the charging stations.

There should be legislations for tax breaks for every school, bank, supermarket, shopping center, library, etc. to boldly display that they have a charging stations there... Then there will be more incentives for current EV drivers to use the charging stations, and potential new drivers to see the convenience of "gassing up" while you go to the supermarket!. As an example, Remember when cash machines were new? You had to have an account at that bank, and you had to be lucky enough to have the bank with a cash machine near you..... Now there are cash machines everywhere, and they are all interconnected anywhere you go... THAT is the regulation we need, to increase users, and then the cost will also be lower for everyone...

Click to expand...

Agreed..hit the nail right on the head

ElectricEddy said:

powersurge said:

I live on Long Island, New York. At this time, I don't give a hoot about "regulation". I charge at the charge point stations, which are free at this time, and I have had no problems with my ID card to get charges. The problem with charging stations here in new York is that there are not enough of them.

I feel they should be "de-regulated" and their numbers increased so that EV drivers, and the general public can see that electric cars are here to stay and are getting more popular. Right now, I would say that on long island, there are stations every 5-10 miles, which does not make sense unless you are planning to stay in that area for a while. That is why there are few (in my observation) EVs using the charging stations.

There should be legislations for tax breaks for every school, bank, supermarket, shopping center, library, etc. to boldly display that they have a charging stations there... Then there will be more incentives for current EV drivers to use the charging stations, and potential new drivers to see the convenience of "gassing up" while you go to the supermarket!. As an example, Remember when cash machines were new? You had to have an account at that bank, and you had to be lucky enough to have the bank with a cash machine near you..... Now there are cash machines everywhere, and they are all interconnected anywhere you go... THAT is the regulation we need, to increase users, and then the cost will also be lower for everyone...

Click to expand...

Agreed..hit the nail right on the head

Click to expand...

To bring this back a little on topic, let us suppose that generous tax breaks were enacted as suggested above. Now let's say that the owners or operators of the charging station decided that it would cost $50 per charge. Is that a good use of taxpayer funds? Would these charging stations be used? Is that an efficient market place?

matth said:

ElectricEddy said:

powersurge said:

I live on Long Island, New York. At this time, I don't give a hoot about "regulation". I charge at the charge point stations, which are free at this time, and I have had no problems with my ID card to get charges. The problem with charging stations here in new York is that there are not enough of them.

I feel they should be "de-regulated" and their numbers increased so that EV drivers, and the general public can see that electric cars are here to stay and are getting more popular. Right now, I would say that on long island, there are stations every 5-10 miles, which does not make sense unless you are planning to stay in that area for a while. That is why there are few (in my observation) EVs using the charging stations.

There should be legislations for tax breaks for every school, bank, supermarket, shopping center, library, etc. to boldly display that they have a charging stations there... Then there will be more incentives for current EV drivers to use the charging stations, and potential new drivers to see the convenience of "gassing up" while you go to the supermarket!. As an example, Remember when cash machines were new? You had to have an account at that bank, and you had to be lucky enough to have the bank with a cash machine near you..... Now there are cash machines everywhere, and they are all interconnected anywhere you go... THAT is the regulation we need, to increase users, and then the cost will also be lower for everyone...

Click to expand...

Agreed..hit the nail right on the head

Click to expand...

To bring this back a little on topic, let us suppose that generous tax breaks were enacted as suggested above. Now let's say that the owners or operators of the charging station decided that it would cost $50 per charge. Is that a good use of taxpayer funds? Would these charging stations be used? Is that an efficient market place?

Click to expand...

More stations would mean competitive pricing so I don't see that scenario playing out, I would however pay that $50.00 if I where hovering around turtle mode on one of the many mountain passes here in B.C. where there are none to be found and forced to call for a tow truck.

ElectricEddy said:

matth said:

ElectricEddy said:

Agreed..hit the nail right on the head

Click to expand...

To bring this back a little on topic, let us suppose that generous tax breaks were enacted as suggested above. Now let's say that the owners or operators of the charging station decided that it would cost $50 per charge. Is that a good use of taxpayer funds? Would these charging stations be used? Is that an efficient market place?

Click to expand...

More stations would mean competitive pricing so I don't see that scenario playing out, I would however pay that $50.00 if I where hovering around turtle mode on one of the many mountain passes here in B.C. where there are none to be found and forced to call for a tow truck.

Click to expand...

Please read my OP.

Fairly high density in my area has not resulted in competitive pricing. As a result, IMO, the publicly funded infrastructure is under used, resulting in a poor use of public funds. As an example, I have paid for charging once in almost 5 years of ownership, largely because it is so cost ineffective.

Here's what it looks like, from plugshare.

As short range EVs like the current LEAF become obsolete in the near future, the need for L2 public charging — save, perhaps, for destination charging at workplaces and lodging — should become obsolete. So, hand-wringing over public L2 charging seems misplaced to me.

DC fast charging needs to be strategically placed in a well-thought-out network or be added to the current gas station/convenience stores (where they make their money from the store not the near break-even gas sales) so that DCFC is so ubiquitous that one can get a charge whenever it is needed without planning ahead. Tesla is following the first model for now but I wouldn't be surprised to see the latter model win out in the end.