Range & Refueling needs for a trip EV

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CRLeafSL

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
115
Location
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
I don't want to take this thread too far off topic but still even with this new battery price announced, I still have no interest in purchasing this car. In order to get me to purchase, they would have to add a TMC to heat/cool the battery. I don't care if they are working on different chemistry that is supposed to be more tolerant to heat. Your forgetting about the cold. HEAT the damn battery already during cold months and cool the thing in warm climates. Again don't care about different chemistry TMC is the only way to go. Also RANGE needs to triple. I know there's speculation that the 2016 model might come with battery options. If I'm buying a $25,000 to $30,000 car not counting government credits or state incentives, then that car better get me over 200+ highway miles cruising right around 65 to 70 miles per hour. Electric is nice, but has so far to go to get me interested.
 
A few thoughts on all this:

I expect that we're in for some surprises in the next 8 to 18 months. Will the Leaf 2.0 offer battery options? What range, price, and characteristics will they have (e.g. TMC?)?

What will be the customer experience like for the first few people who do the $5,500 battery swap? (Guess: Highly uneven, thanks to the extreme variability of dealers. There are local Nissan dealers I would NEVER let do that swap on my Leaf, if I owned it.)

In the longer term, I expect the number of Leafs on the road to hit a critical mass and brand-name, third-party battery replacements/upgrades to appear. Whether that happens in 2 years or 10 is anyone's guess, but I'm sure it will happen, assuming Nissan doesn't find a way to lock out third parties.

The announced $5,500 battery swap is a game changer for some people, possibly including me. When my lease is up in March, if I can't extend it then I will have to make a really tough decision: Buy or lease a 2015 Leaf, live with just one car in the household until the Leaf 2.0 is available next Fall (assuming there's a combination of trim level and battery that works for me), or (gasp!) consider buying/leasing something from Another Company. I'm seriously thinking about buying a Leaf, simply because the basic battery warranty is long enough, and the battery swap price is reasonable enough now (and likely to get cheaper by the time my warranty expires), that the economics work out pretty well. Heck, my wife, who is very savvy about such things and is worried about technological obsolescence, is even on board.
 
CRLeafSL said:
If I'm buying a $25,000 to $30,000 car not counting government credits or state incentives, then that car better get me over 200+ highway miles cruising right around 65 to 70 miles per hour. Electric is nice, but has so far to go to get me interested.
Hmmm ... it appears you already paid that much to get 70 mile range Leaf ... ? Or do you mean - you will only lease but not buy ?

I'd also only lease current gen (probably next gen too) EVs. They will all look somewhat obsolete within 5 years of introduction.
 
evnow said:
CRLeafSL said:
If I'm buying a $25,000 to $30,000 car not counting government credits or state incentives, then that car better get me over 200+ highway miles cruising right around 65 to 70 miles per hour. Electric is nice, but has so far to go to get me interested.
Hmmm ... it appears you already paid that much to get 70 mile range Leaf ... ? Or do you mean - you will only lease but not buy ?

I'd also only lease current gen (probably next gen too) EVs. They will all look somewhat obsolete within 5 years of introduction.


Your right I leased. At this point I refuse to buy until the car can do 200+ real miles (not Nissan Miles) on a charge and has an active TMS to both heat and cool the battery. Until that happens I won't even think about purchasing. I probably won't even lease another one till they can at least triple the range. It's just way to limited to be taken seriously.
 
CRLeafSL said:
I don't want to take this thread too far off topic but still even with this new battery price announced, I still have no interest in purchasing this car. In order to get me to purchase, they would have to add a TMC to heat/cool the battery. I don't care if they are working on different chemistry that is supposed to be more tolerant to heat. Your forgetting about the cold. HEAT the damn battery already during cold months and cool the thing in warm climates. Again don't care about different chemistry TMC is the only way to go. Also RANGE needs to triple. I know there's speculation that the 2016 model might come with battery options. If I'm buying a $25,000 to $30,000 car not counting government credits or state incentives, then that car better get me over 200+ highway miles cruising right around 65 to 70 miles per hour. Electric is nice, but has so far to go to get me interested.

Well, I'm not buying until it can go 500 miles on a charge, re-charging takes 5 minutes tops, and they sell it for under 20 grand. And I want it to seat 7. But not get any bigger. Or heavier.
 
evnow said:
I'd also only lease current gen (probably next gen too) EVs. They will all look somewhat obsolete within 5 years of introduction.

The problem waiting for the next generation is that there is always a next generation. Had I heeded advice to not buy a 386 computer and wait for the 486, I'd still be heeding advice to wait for the next gen computer all the while using a 286.

Put another way, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

By the time the Gen II LEAF is available, the first LEAF's sold in Dec 2010 will be approaching 6 yrs or more. 1/2 way to obsolescence anyway. The person who waited until 2015 to buy a LEAF will feel his car became obsolete much more quickly than the early adopter in 2010. Waiting often hurts, not helps.

PC's become obsolete much more quickly than that but just about everyone buys not leases.

Obsolescence in my experience is a poor reason to wait.
 
My leaf works for me today, and will continue to work long enough to pay off it's costs in fuel savings. I bought mine... I bet when the lease is turned in the car will be worth very close to the residual value in the lease. If something else better comes along later, selling a car you own, or turning in a car you leased will probably be a wash. Nissan doesn't work for free. Why would they leave money on the table ?
 
CRLeafSL said:
evnow said:
CRLeafSL said:
If I'm buying a $25,000 to $30,000 car not counting government credits or state incentives, then that car better get me over 200+ highway miles cruising right around 65 to 70 miles per hour. Electric is nice, but has so far to go to get me interested.
Hmmm ... it appears you already paid that much to get 70 mile range Leaf ... ? Or do you mean - you will only lease but not buy ?

I'd also only lease current gen (probably next gen too) EVs. They will all look somewhat obsolete within 5 years of introduction.


Your right I leased. At this point I refuse to buy until the car can do 200+ real miles (not Nissan Miles) on a charge and has an active TMS to both heat and cool the battery. Until that happens I won't even think about purchasing. I probably won't even lease another one till they can at least triple the range. It's just way to limited to be taken seriously.

In Iowa of course. One of the mistakes perhaps was selling/leasing to someone in Iowa. I'm sure Nissan wanted to be nationally available and all but the entirety of the Midwest is really not the place for early EVs - particularly not without a TMS. A full 50% of the country doesn't really need to worry about heating the battery and chemistry can fix the cooling issue (although AZ is tough). Different strokes for different folks.

I'm sure the market place has filtered some of this out and you don't see many Leafs in Iowa. In my world, it is a pretty common car. Smaller city, mild climate, charging everywhere, high home ownership with garages, mostly families with 2+ cars. If we had a state incentive and a few QCs, we could easily replace 30% of our fleet without much compromise at all. If the Leaf was a little more stylish, sales would triple. If it had a little more torque, it would triple again (not Tesla speed but quick enough to shock people). All these Ifs will probably be there with Leaf 2.0 even if the range isn't anywhere close to triple. I honestly think 120 EPA would really be enough to triple sales.

So in my crazy optimistic world, you get 27 times more sales with style, 0-60 of 7 secs and 120 mile EPA range for $30k. I also don't think Nissan could build that many in the next few years so the point is probably moot.
 
davidcary said:
If it had a little more torque, it would triple again (not Tesla speed but quick enough to shock people).
Well, if the controller would just allow full power to the motor right from zero that'd sure help. I finally thought to look at the dash during full-on acceleration from a stop and the ramping up of power seemed to take forever. Not surprised they've chosen to do this but I still daydream of being able to take off like the White Zombie (sans wheelie!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqTY9y3cECI
 
DaveInAvl said:
davidcary said:
If it had a little more torque, it would triple again (not Tesla speed but quick enough to shock people).
Well, if the controller would just allow full power to the motor right from zero that'd sure help. I finally thought to look at the dash during full-on acceleration from a stop and the ramping up of power seemed to take forever. Not surprised they've chosen to do this but I still daydream of being able to take off like the White Zombie (sans wheelie!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqTY9y3cECI

I'm not sure you can put full power to a motor like that at such low speeds. Probably wouldn't be good for it. It has a permanent magnet rotor. Torque needs magnetism and it's limited here. If you want torque use a series field dc motor, but then it wouldn't be as efficient.
 
DaveInAvl said:
Well, if the controller would just allow full power to the motor right from zero that'd sure help.

Sorry, real electric motors have a torque limit. This is partially a magnetic limit, and partially a wire current carrying limit. On the electrical side of the motor this reflects to a maximum current, and at or near zero the controller is supplying the current at a very low voltage as the voltage is proportional to the speed of the motor. So even the White Zombie's motor/controller is supplying far less than full power at near zero speed. Full torque, yes. Remember that power = voltage * current = torque * RPM. At zero RPMs the motor can be outputting full torque, but not full power. At zero RPMs the controller is supplying full current, and the motor is generating almost no voltage back, so almost no power.
 
BBrockman said:
Hi all:
. . . . . snip . . . . .

Q. What are the terms of Nissan's financing?
A: We plan to release the exact terms of the financing by the end of the year.

Q. Will you offer higher capacity batteries to upgrade my LEAF in the future?
A: Currently, we can only discuss the 24kWh LEAF pack. We are not making any announcements concerning larger potential battery pack sizes for future products at this time.

Q. will the new / replacement pack die as quick as the last one . . . and STILL not get 100 miles 'real world' driving' - as originally PROMISED in some of the literature we hoped you wouldn't hold on to?

A: YES

:x

:lol:
 
Remember that this is a front wheel drive car without a heavy forward weight bias (like many ICE versions). Such FWD cars suck at acceleration traction so even if you could get near full torque from zero, all you would accomplish is to make lots of tire noise...

DaveInAvl said:
Well, if the controller would just allow full power to the motor right from zero that'd sure help. I finally thought to look at the dash during full-on acceleration from a stop and the ramping up of power seemed to take forever. Not surprised they've chosen to do this but I still daydream of being able to take off like the White Zombie (sans wheelie!)
 
CRLeafSL said:
evnow said:
CRLeafSL said:
Your right I leased. At this point I refuse to buy until the car can do 200+ real miles (not Nissan Miles) on a charge and has an active TMS to both heat and cool the battery. Until that happens I won't even think about purchasing. I probably won't even lease another one till they can at least triple the range. It's just way to limited to be taken seriously.

While I agree with your desire for range and resilience, I do caution folks about demanding particular solutions. The issue with the batteries degrading due to temperature swings may well be significant now, but why demand a TMS in the future? It may really not be necessary and adding it could have negative effects. This attitude is what leads to "marketing requirements" with no real engineering purpose.

Ask for 200 mile electric range - don't demand particular engineering solutions.
 
[\quote]
While I agree with your desire for range and resilience, I do caution folks about demanding particular solutions. The issue with the batteries degrading due to temperature swings may well be significant now, but why demand a TMS in the future? It may really not be necessary and adding it could have negative effects. This attitude is what leads to "marketing requirements" with no real engineering purpose.

Ask for 200 mile electric range - don't demand particular engineering solutions.[/quote]


Sorry I 100% disagree. I do demand something that is ABSOLUTELY needed. I don't think anybody here nor any Engineer can change my opinion about needing a TMS. That is because it IS needed. Period. I don't care how well the battery can do in the heat, cold affects range. Heat the damn thing already and you won't have near the range drop in cold weather. Nobody is going to change my mind on a TMS that IS NEEDED. I won't get another electric vehicle without it. Won't even look at it. Period.
 
CRLeafSL said:
Sorry I 100% disagree. I do demand something that is ABSOLUTELY needed. I don't think anybody here nor any Engineer can change my opinion about needing a TMS. That is because it IS needed. Period. I don't care how well the battery can do in the heat, cold affects range. Heat the damn thing already and you won't have near the range drop in cold weather. Nobody is going to change my mind on a TMS that IS NEEDED. I won't get another electric vehicle without it. Won't even look at it. Period.

You make it sound like heating the battery is free. Heating the battery takes energy, meaning, lower range. At some point, you're using more energy heating the battery than you are getting range from it being warmer. Everything is a balance, and some EV makers just found that balance was too low to warrant the costs for such a system. It's also quite a complex system. Keeping the battery >40° overnight in sub-zero temps is going to take a LOT of energy.

If you're that concerned about the battery temperature in cold climates, store the EV in a garage, and put a space heater of two in the garage, and run them 24/7.

Not everyone lives in Alaska. There are far more EV drivers in temperate/warm climates than colder regions. So much so, that the only EV available in Russia is the i-MiEV.
 
WetEV said:
At zero RPMs the motor can be outputting full torque, but not full power. At zero RPMs the controller is supplying full current, and the motor is generating almost no voltage back, so almost no power.
I'm having trouble fitting this explanation to what I see and feel when accelerating from a stop. Initially only a couple of the white "power" dots appear, then several more, then all of them. The amount of acceleration I feel seems to correlate to how many of the dots there are. The push back into the seat is gentle at first, then builds to a maximum when all the dots appear - until the point on the motor's power curve where torque starts decreasing to hold constant horsepower.

If the LEAF's controller permitted maximum torque at zero RPM, then the rate of acceleration from zero up to the "decrease point" would be constant, right? It certainly doesn't feel that way. I understand that range could take a hit and such antics might not fit Nissan's desired image for the car, but it still seems possible to do... unless I'm still missing something. Wouldn't be the first time :D
 
DaveInAvl said:
WetEV said:
At zero RPMs the motor can be outputting full torque, but not full power. At zero RPMs the controller is supplying full current, and the motor is generating almost no voltage back, so almost no power.
I'm having trouble fitting this explanation to what I see and feel when accelerating from a stop. Initially only a couple of the white "power" dots appear, then several more, then all of them. The amount of acceleration I feel seems to correlate to how many of the dots there are. The push back into the seat is gentle at first, then builds to a maximum when all the dots appear - until the point on the motor's power curve where torque starts decreasing to hold constant horsepower.

If the LEAF's controller permitted maximum torque at zero RPM, then the rate of acceleration from zero up to the "decrease point" would be constant, right? It certainly doesn't feel that way. I understand that range could take a hit and such antics might not fit Nissan's desired image for the car, but it still seems possible to do... unless I'm still missing something. Wouldn't be the first time :D

power is related to torque AND rpm. at the exact moment you step on the gas when the light turns green, your power to the wheels is zero. (No rpm), and goes up from there. Maximum torque is at the lower rpm and is limited by the magnetism available inside the motor. at higher speed it is lower and is limited by the current available from the inverter and battery pack. If you had a transmission or torque converter, your RPM can be reduced and your torque multiplied, but the leaf doesn't have one of those
 
DaveInAvl said:
If the LEAF's controller permitted maximum torque at zero RPM, then the rate of acceleration from zero up to the "decrease point" would be constant, right? It certainly doesn't feel that way. I understand that range could take a hit and such antics might not fit Nissan's desired image for the car, but it still seems possible to do... unless I'm still missing something. Wouldn't be the first time :D

I'd reckon that it has more to do with protecting drive train components and or preventing wheel spin.

Read here for one man's opinion on what happens when you apply full power a bit too quickly:

http://evtv.me/2014/07/milling-mire/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
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