eVgo Expansion?

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NYLEAF

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 5, 2011
Messages
574
Location
Long Island, NY
NRG eVgo recently (mid May) posted job listings for "Site Developers" in the following markets:

Orlando
Boston
Nashville
Miami
Chicago
Denver
New York
Atlanta

Seems like they're planning a pretty large expansion soon.
 
It seems they have abandoned the DF/W area.. At least as far as any new stations are concerned. For a while they were popping up left and right. But all of that has come to a halt. The number of stations we have is barely adequate, but certainly better than nothing.
 
I really wish they'd stop installing a single QC and a single L2 station at most of their locations along with an oversized kiosk device and shade structure. They'd be better off installing two QCs and 3-4 L2 stations per location with less flash and more function.

How many gas stations do you see with a single pump?
 
Valdemar said:
I was told by an evgo installer that each site is future-proofed for a second QC unit, i.e. SCC.
I presume by SCC you mean Frankenplug? How does that help anyone unless you can charge on both plugs? You're still just as likely to show up and find it busy putting a severe dent in your travel plans.
 
drees said:
Valdemar said:
I was told by an evgo installer that each site is future-proofed for a second QC unit, i.e. SCC.
I presume by SCC you mean Frankenplug? How does that help anyone unless you can charge on both plugs? You're still just as likely to show up and find it busy putting a severe dent in your travel plans.

They may decide to add a second CHAdeMO depending on demand.
 
Valdemar said:
They may decide to add a second CHAdeMO depending on demand.
The problem is that a single QC station only supports a few 30 minute charges a day before it gets too congested to rely on unless you are prepared to wait up to 30 minutes frequently. So I really hope that their threshold for deciding to add a second station is pretty low. Not to mention the fact that even the Nissan station seem to break down quite often leaving you stranded.

Two stations will support around 4-5 times the number of charges that a single station will assuming a 10-20% blocking/waiting rate. If the infrastructure is already there and you're seeing a handful of charges a day, you're probably well past the point that it would be beneficial to add a 2nd station.

It's even worse for L2 stations given that you typically want to stay at least an hour if not longer on a L2.

Capacity of Charging Stations Using an Erlang-B Model

I would love to know what charging network operators are thinking because the way that most infrastructure is getting deployed (aside from Tesla SuperChargers) is not an efficient use of money.
 
Judging by comments on PlugShare it may take a while, many ppl say they will never use it again because it is too expensive :)
 
Valdemar said:
Judging by comments on PlugShare it may take a while, many ppl say they will never use it again because it is too expensive :)
Very true, especially when there is a flag $4.95 charge just to plug in. Who wants to pay a minimum of $7-8 just for a quick top-off? You really want to arrive on fumes to make it worth while and then charge to around 80% to maximize your value. At 20c/minute, charging at 45 kW you can get a kWh price of ~27c / kWh which is very reasonable for QC. But once you get down to 15 kW and are paying ~80c / kWh, you close to the point of diminishing returns.

I guess one might look at it this way: My LEAF takes ~11 kWh and about 3 hours to charge to 80% on L2 (240V/16A). A LBW-80% QC takes about 30 minutes. On eVgo rates that would cost $10.95 or $1 / kWh on average. At 20c/hour you pay $1+ / kWh at 12 kW or less, so once your charge rate gets somewhere below 12 kW, you probably want to unplug.

It'd be interesting to have a calculator that showed the current session cost, cost / kWh and incremental cost / kWh so you could unplug at the "optimal" time if you didn't need as much charge as possible.
 
I subscribed to their monthly plan. $14.99/mo is a reasonable price for a peace of mind, and I stop to charge 4-5 a month so it is not too bad, better than $2/hr at work.
 
drees said:
Very true, especially when there is a flag $4.95 charge just to plug in.
This helps to prevent overcrowding at the stations! :)

I finally signed up for eVgo about two weeks ago since they now offer a $0/month plan. I used one of their quick chargers to get me home from a trip to DC about a week ago. (This was the first time I used the $700 quick charger option on our LEAF! It works!) While it certainly improves the flexibility of the LEAF, I calculated that it cost LESS to fuel my wife's identical trip in our 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid into the city AND back than the LEAF. In fact, the HCH cost approximate ONE-HALF as much to fuel as the LEAF, and I only required the QC in one direction (due to elevation/wind).

But the LEAF wins overall since for most trips the fuel cost is about 1/3 that of the Honda.
 
Valdemar said:
I subscribed to their monthly plan. $14.99/mo is a reasonable price for a peace of mind, and I stop to charge 4-5 a month so it is not too bad, better than $2/hr at work.
Yes, if you charge 3x+ a month, then the subscription is worth it. Especially if you prefer short charging stops since it eliminates the per-session fee. But for most people they might only need a station occasionally a few times a month at most. In which case the per-session fee serves as a deterrent. I would rather pay $0.30 / minute than pay $4.95 + $0.20 / minute.

Wouldn't it be easier if they simply gave you a discount once you exceeded a certain amount of usage each month?

For example, bill the first 60 minutes / month at $0.30 / minute, the next 60 minutes / month at $0.20 / month and every minute after that at $0.10 / minute? Then you simplify your plans and you still encourage people to use it often.

RegGuheert said:
drees said:
Very true, especially when there is a flag $4.95 charge just to plug in.
This helps to prevent overcrowding at the stations! :)
Well, it does and it doesn't. It discourages people who don't have a subscription to avoid using it unless they really need it, but if they do, they should probably stay until they get to 80% or so (about 30 minutes).

RegGuheert said:
I finally signed up for eVgo about two weeks ago since they now offer a $0/month plan. I used one of their quick chargers to get me home from a trip to DC about a week ago. (This was the first time I used the $700 quick charger option on our LEAF! It works!) While it certainly improves the flexibility of the LEAF, I calculated that it cost LESS to fuel my wife's identical trip in our 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid into the city AND back than the LEAF. In fact, the HCH cost approximate ONE-HALF as much to fuel as the LEAF, and I only required the QC in one direction (due to elevation/wind).

But the LEAF wins overall since for most trips the fuel cost is about 1/3 that of the Honda.
I presume you had to use public charging while in DC to get back? Getting public charging costs down is going to be necessary to get very widespread EV adoption considering that many people don't necessarily have access to at-home charging.
 
drees said:
I presume you had to use public charging while in DC to get back?
Yes. I had a full (private) charge both ways, but on the return trip my efficiency was quite a bit lower, forcing me to stop. I could have paid $1.44 for L2 at a ChargePoint station, but with four people and a cooler full of food in the car, QC was much more attractive. We only charged for the time it took for us to walk in and use the restroom and we were on our way again.
drees said:
Getting public charging costs down is going to be necessary to get very widespread EV adoption considering that many people don't necessarily have access to at-home charging.
Agreed. But the charging vendors also need to find a business model that works. The high costs of equipment, siting rights, installation and maintenance mean that more vendors will likely fail in the future. I thought eVgo was doomed when they originally had no plans without a monthly fee, but now they have one and the current expansion is a promising sign. Still, it will be tough to make ends meet. I suspect the dozen-or-so QCs they are locating in each market is the minimum level they think is viable.

I don't particularly like their pricing, but at least they now have a plan that I can live with. I do understand that theirs is a tough business and I hope at least some of the charge providers succeed. I suspect that, among other things, it will take a very advanced design and manufacturing approach to QC equipment similar to automotive quality standards before these things will really fly. Perhaps Tesla really does have a leg up in terms of both equipment and business model here. I think Nissan has the talent to design and manufacture an excellent unit (as evidenced by the reliability of the inverter in the LEAF) but they do not have the motivation to be in that business. They are probably correct to stay out of a direct effort in charging infrastructure and support others to do it, but only time will tell.
 
The lack of a robust charging network is the main thing that is holding back EV sales at this point. If we ever want to get past 1% market share this has to change.

One nozzle at one location is a real problem. The reliability or lack there of is also a huge problem. The city recently installed 2 ABB quick charge stations at one location downtown. The problem is one of the two has been out of order longer than it has been working. I have called the city and written multiple emails telling them this is a problem and to this day it is still busted.

We need more stations and better service at those stations for EV's to become mainstream.
 
I agree with Valdemar - I have subscribed to the EVgo monthly subscription plan to support the effort for more QC in the MD-DC area and for the peace of mind. I don't expect to need it much, but if I really need a charge due to unforeseen emergency or long trip, the QC is the only real solution. EVgo has aggressive plans in the area. They are not charging for the monthly fee until they have a critical mass of QCs installed - something like 15 or so. They have plans for 40 or so in the area ultimately.
 
I would be happy to pay 20 cents per minute, if the choice was there. The problem is there are no eVgo stations anywhere near SLC.

The air is so thick here in January you could cut it with a knife, thank you gas guzzler drivers.
 
drees said:
The problem is that a single QC station only supports a few 30 minute charges a day before it gets too congested to rely on unless you are prepared to wait up to 30 minutes frequently.
How many people actually stay parked at the station for 30 minutes? I've never used one longer than 10 minutes.
 
For 10 minutes QC, its about 70 cents per minute.
In my mind, only for emergency use, unless you are rich.

Perhaps the goal us to APPEAR to provide an EV charging infrastructure,
but ACTUALLY not do so, but instead provide an annoying experience:
wait your turn, and then pay too much.

With this charge pricing model, users will tend to charge longer than needed,
and wait times will even be worse than necessary.

The flat 15 cents per minute QC in southern San Juan Capistrano, CA is
a better example of attractive pricing, with no major incentive to charge
more than necessary, just to better amortize the large session fee.
 
RegGuheert said:
But the charging vendors also need to find a business model that works. The high costs of equipment, siting rights, installation and maintenance mean that more vendors will likely fail in the future. I thought eVgo was doomed when they originally had no plans without a monthly fee, but now they have one and the current expansion is a promising sign. Still, it will be tough to make ends meet. I suspect the dozen-or-so QCs they are locating in each market is the minimum level they think is viable.
Definitely agree. The problem is that I think their approach is very poor. A single plug per location sucks from three perspectives:

1. Reliability - outage takes down the station and potentially leaves you stranded (at least they tend to couple L2)
2. Availability - if station is in use, you'll have to wait a while before it frees up. Better hope that person doesn't leave their car there while at the movies or that the plug reaches more than one parking spot!
3. Infrastructure cost - The most expensive way to install stations is to install a single station per location.

RegGuheert said:
I suspect that, among other things, it will take a very advanced design and manufacturing approach to QC equipment similar to automotive quality standards before these things will really fly. Perhaps Tesla really does have a leg up in terms of both equipment and business model here.
Tesla is definitely the leader here. By installing 6-8 plugs per location which addresses the 3 issues above.

RegGuheert said:
I think Nissan has the talent to design and manufacture an excellent unit (as evidenced by the reliability of the inverter in the LEAF) but they do not have the motivation to be in that business. They are probably correct to stay out of a direct effort in charging infrastructure and support others to do it, but only time will tell.
Probably. Maybe someone should get Tesla to design a proper CHAdeMO station by scaling down one of their 135 kW charging stacks to half size.

adric22 said:
How many people actually stay parked at the station for 30 minutes? I've never used one longer than 10 minutes.
I'd say about 2/3rd of the time I've used a QC I've charged 20-30 minutes. Granted, I don't use them very often.
 
drees said:
The problem is that I think their approach is very poor. A single plug per location sucks from three perspectives:

1. Reliability - outage takes down the station and potentially leaves you stranded (at least they tend to couple L2)
2. Availability - if station is in use, you'll have to wait a while before it frees up. Better hope that person doesn't leave their car there while at the movies or that the plug reaches more than one parking spot!
3. Infrastructure cost - The most expensive way to install stations is to install a single station per location.
You are certainly correct on all points. But I can also see the logic behind a business decision which says "It's not worth spending another $50,000 to $100,000 to add a second QC when the first one is used less than 5X daily." (...or whatever the number is.) It really is a chicken and egg problem for charging vendors. They cannot subsidize their quick chargers by selling cars like Tesla does.
 
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