AP1
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:20 am

the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.


Right, and when GM limited the Volt to its range because of all the surveys they did showed that most people did not travel more than 35 miles per day, they were lying!!!! By the way, I travel less then 30 miles a day and so do all the Leafers I know, granted not that many.

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jhm614
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:33 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
jhm614 wrote:Maybe there will be an EV Project V2 -- with ChargePoint at the helm?


Right, the folks who got burned with Solyndra, Fisker and Ecotality are going to hand out more? Doubtful. Very doubtful.


Yes, according to Bloomberg, the folks who backed Soylnda, Fisker & Ecotality are opening the tap again...
2011 Brilliant Silver SL - 110,000 gasoline free miles so far.
4BL: 06/29/13 @ 27 months, 43,520 miles, 42.56 Ahr. New 12 bar battery: 09/09/13
4BLx2:12/31/16 @ 69 months, 99,475 miles, 42.99 Ahr.

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jhm614
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:37 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:the problem with the interim charging now is lack of convenient charging options. interim charging could work but only if the current public charging infrastructure was tripled and each additional charger was put in a near perfect spot.

the likelihood of that happening (if it were possible) is not good. We pretty much have to double what we have now to handle the growing demand in my area as it is...

I agree... but I think that 1:1 workplace charging (or at least 1:0.5 workplace charging is the solution for 70% to 80% of this... It fixes most of the weekday problems (and possibly none of the weekend problems). Still, it seems like the low hanging fruit to me. Of course, I actually know -nothing- of of the regulatory, permitting & infrastructure required (not to mention the funding) to make this happen.
2011 Brilliant Silver SL - 110,000 gasoline free miles so far.
4BL: 06/29/13 @ 27 months, 43,520 miles, 42.56 Ahr. New 12 bar battery: 09/09/13
4BLx2:12/31/16 @ 69 months, 99,475 miles, 42.99 Ahr.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:50 pm

jhm614 wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:the problem with the interim charging now is lack of convenient charging options. interim charging could work but only if the current public charging infrastructure was tripled and each additional charger was put in a near perfect spot.

the likelihood of that happening (if it were possible) is not good. We pretty much have to double what we have now to handle the growing demand in my area as it is...

I agree... but I think that 1:1 workplace charging (or at least 1:0.5 workplace charging is the solution for 70% to 80% of this... It fixes most of the weekday problems (and possibly none of the weekend problems). Still, it seems like the low hanging fruit to me. Of course, I actually know -nothing- of of the regulatory, permitting & infrastructure required (not to mention the funding) to make this happen.


i agree that not provisioning workplace charging for L1 was a mistake. 8 hours of L1 may not allow Steve Marsh to do what he needs to do but it really does boost the range of the LEAF just enough to cover most of the range shortfall for the average driver and allow some errands during or after work.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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WetEV
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:19 am

dgpcolorado wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:...the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.
I'm not so sure Dave. I could make it work if I could do interim charging on my longer trips. Not as convenient as now, of course, but doable. I just don't have any public charge stations in my area. But that's not a problem for the vast majority of LEAF owners, who do have access to public charge stations.

You are already doing interim charging to stretch your range. Surely three bar losers could also do that until they hit four bars and were eligible for a new battery. This is mostly an issue for the 20% of us who purchased our LEAFs, plus any used LEAF buyers who have 50+ mile range needs.

Still, you are probably right that it is an impediment for the "mass market".


As someone has already noted, surveys of drivers find that well over half drive less than 35 miles a day. "Mass market", yes.

The point to the 4-bar 70% EOL (or even less) is economics. Batteries are expensive, the more miles you can get out of one the better off you are. The longer you use it, the more miles you get. Should get about twice as many miles out of a pack to 70% 4-bar loss as with 80% 2 bar. Should get even more miles if you can live with 60% or more reduction in capacity.
WetEV
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thankyouOB
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:14 am

yes, i will keep my car that i bought and yes, it will be better to milk the current battery for as much use as possible.
the key use is commute to work. that is a must. lose that and i have to sell it.
but along the way, as i shed range, i shed key other uses, such as using the car to go to hollywood on a weekend or some friends' apartments, who live 35 miles away. (they dont have garages and there are no convenient chargers.)
of course, if it were my only car, i would figure a way into the inconvenience of charging on the go-there or return trip.

all that said, it sucks that nissan has pulled the syb program on us. it sucks worse that some came back from the phoenix 2 with the idea that somewhere down the road nissan will set a threshold of mileage or ownership period after which they would sell a battery to owners.

there seems to be some disagreement about what was said about that. nailing the truth of what was said by nissan is less significant because nissan has lied to us before or, to put it more nicely, changed its mind after making promises.

all that said, you would think they would find a way to make early adopters happy (it would not cost them more than $10 million) so we could once again be a source of recommendations and joy.
but then, i dont run a car company.
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dgpcolorado
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:03 am

WetEV wrote:As someone has already noted, surveys of drivers find that well over half drive less than 35 miles a day. "Mass market", yes.
The problem is one of psychology. Even for someone who drives 35 miles or less per day, most of the time, the idea of a car limited to 50 miles or so is difficult to accept for the "mass market". That's why so many here are of the opinion that BEVs won't catch on until the range is substantially higher.
The point to the 4-bar 70% EOL (or even less) is economics. Batteries are expensive, the more miles you can get out of one the better off you are. The longer you use it, the more miles you get.
I agree and am attempting to figure out how to deal with a 50 mile range battery in the years to come. It is a difficult problem.
Should get about twice as many miles out of a pack to 70% 4-bar loss as with 80% 2 bar...
Sorry, I don't believe that for a minute. I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the battery degradation really does slow anywhere near that much. One factor to consider is that a lower capacity battery requires deeper charging cycles to get the same miles.
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evnow
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:39 am

dgpcolorado wrote:
WetEV wrote:As someone has already noted, surveys of drivers find that well over half drive less than 35 miles a day. "Mass market", yes.
The problem is one of psychology. Even for someone who drives 35 miles or less per day, most of the time, the idea of a car limited to 50 miles or so is difficult to accept for the "mass market".

People don't buy for the "average" use. They buy for the 90th percentile or something like that. Ofcourse some have gone overboard and bought huge trucks for everyday use - as some kind of a lifestyle statement.

So, EVs would have to work for the typical trip to friends and family or day trips over the weekend. Just working for commute is a tough sell.
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TomT
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:42 am

46 a day here with significant elevation change...

AP1 wrote:
the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.


Right, and when GM limited the Volt to its range because of all the surveys they did showed that most people did not travel more than 35 miles per day, they were lying!!!! By the way, I travel less then 30 miles a day and so do all the Leafers I know, granted not that many.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

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dgpcolorado
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:53 am

TomT wrote:46 a day here with significant elevation change...
Well, we always knew you were "above average"... :D
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