How Much Does the LEAF Lose In The Cold?

Nissan Leaf Range: How Much Does It Lose In The Cold?
BY ANTONY INGRAM 1,912 views Feb 1, 2013

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082048_nissan-leaf-range-how-much-does-it-lose-in-the-cold" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fleetcarma has compiled data from more than 5,400 trips of Leaf owners throughout North America, to see what effect temperature has on range.

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Yes, Volt obviously loose range in winter as well but certainly a little differently because of TMS. Climate settings are biggest culprit for both obviously.

[update]
Hopefully all readers understand that there is a logger that is used to track real time data. Hence the 5,400 trips worth. On the Volt there is two "OBDII" ports and their logger uses both as the 2nd contains additional information. This page mentions a LEAF harness but that may just be the 'extension' cable. On the Volt's it is a Y cable..
http://www.fleetcarma.com/Content/docs/FleetCarma_C5_SpecSheet_1page.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[/update]

That plot must be AVERAGE (or even MINIMUM) range at those temperatures rather than MAXIMUM range.

Also, do we trust mi/kWh reported by the LEAF? I don't.

I will assume that the heater was running full blast for this data? Also, what was the average miles/Kwh for each temperature bin? Not sure what this shows other than when it is cold range decreases. Duh.

bradbissell said:

Not sure what this shows other than when it is cold range decreases.

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Except that this plot has a label on the y-axis of "Daily Range Capability in Miles". Since I frequently drive farther than the numbers shown in the chart in our LEAF, I will argue that this chart does not represent "range capability", but rather it represents something else. In the interested of data integrity, I suggest that the author of that graph needs to both relabel the Y-axis and provide a description of how these numbers were achieved.

RegGuheert said:

Except that this plot has a label on the y-axis of "Daily Range Capability in Miles". Since I frequently drive farther than the numbers shown in the chart in our LEAF, I will argue that this chart does not represent "range capability", but rather it represents something else. In the interested of data integrity, I suggest that the author of that graph needs to both relabel the Y-axis and provide a description of how these numbers were achieved.

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Yes, I get longer ranges than the highest shown in the graph even in winter temperatures. Those numbers are absurdly low for LEAF range IME. There must be some assumptions not mentioned, perhaps range to 30% of battery or range at 65 mph constant speed or some such thing. If you ignore the Y axis scale, it does show the expected reduction in cold temperatures, not that it is news to anyone (I hope). The gas mileage in my ICE car drops a lot in winter also.

This is similar to what I've posted in the past. Just plotting "real world" data. What is plotted is true for the person ... it is of course not a controlled test with same trips undertaken at different temperatures.

There is more range variation possible in cold weather due to variable usage of heater (and ofcourse actual outside temperature). I can go from 6 m/kWh to 3 m/kWh.

I drove 52 miles this evening at temperatures below 40F and arrived home with 3 bars remaining, even though I crossed the mountain twice. This was with the heat on most of the way. I probably could have traveled 23 more miles with heat pretty easily. mi/kWh for the trip was shown as 3.9. That's 75 miles range on a LEAF manufactured 19 months ago. I guess I exceeded the car's capability by 20 miles. Sorry.

Seems accurate for cold, a little on the low side for warm.

I challenged these guys a bit on their data in a Facebook exchange. They just determined the range based on how many miles per kWh.

That's it.

Oy Vey.

I just love this forum! Whatever range numbers folks publish, they get invariably get accused of being either too high or too low; as often is the case, the truth lies somewhere in between. FWIW, based on my experience, this particular set of numbers is definitely on the low side (and that's with my 18 month old battery pack).

TonyWilliams said:

I challenged these guys a bit on their data in a Facebook exchange. They just determined the range based on how many miles per kWh.

That's it.

Oy Vey.

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Perhaps they should have just plotted what they measured and left it at that!

You have to wonder if forum members are the best judge of this since they are typically hypermilers and like driving without/limited heat... That is not the way the masses want to live and drive which is the goal of these *EVs and thus it seems charts like this have merit for real world drivers.

scottf200 said:

You have to wonder if forum members are the best judge of this since they are typically hypermilers and like driving without/limited heat... That is not the way the masses want to live and drive which is the goal of these *EVs and thus it seems charts like this have merit for real world drivers.

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Perhaps that is true. But perhaps the person who made that chart is an even WORSE judge of the range of the LEAF. Note that at room temperature, the range of the LEAF shown in the chart is 10% below the EPA number.

Your statement is simply FUD designed to spread doubt about the criticism of the poorly-conceived chart which itself is a piece of FUD designed to cast doubt fear and doubt about the viability of the LEAF and BEVs in general.

RegGuheert said:

scottf200 said:

You have to wonder if forum members are the best judge of this since they are typically hypermilers and like driving without/limited heat... That is not the way the masses want to live and drive which is the goal of these *EVs and thus it seems charts like this have merit for real world drivers.

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Perhaps that is true. But perhaps the person who made that chart is an even WORSE judge of the range of the LEAF. Note that at room temperature, the range of the LEAF shown in the chart is 10% below the EPA number.

Your statement is simply FUD designed to spread doubt about the criticism of the poorly-conceived chart which itself is a piece of FUD designed to cast doubt fear and doubt about the viability of the LEAF and BEVs in general.

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I used *EV to point out it affects all type of plug-in EVs including the Volt, Energi's, etc. I've read plenty if cold weather complaints about other *EVs than the LEAF so my comments were general. If we want *EVs to be successful we need to be upfront about expectations in all conditions.

I'm nobody's idea of a hypermiler. The only time I even tried to break 100m I fell more than 10% short. But I beat these miles routinely - and I charge to 80%. Never under 50 yet and that's running heat constantly in sub-20F.

scottf200 said:

You have to wonder if forum members are the best judge of this since they are typically hypermilers and like driving without/limited heat...

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Any data to back that up ?

Here is a general question....is there really this large of a drop off between 70 deg and say 40 deg if one does not use the heater? I am not yet a Leaf owner, but plan to buy a 2013 SV once they are available in Minneapolis. Typically, I don't have the heat on in my car until it's below 40.

GetOffYourGas said:

TonyWilliams said:

I challenged these guys a bit on their data in a Facebook exchange. They just determined the range based on how many miles per kWh.

That's it.

Oy Vey.

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Perhaps they should have just plotted what they measured and left it at that!

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But, apparently they didn't actually measure anything.

LeafinThePark said:

Here is a general question....is there really this large of a drop off between 70 deg and say 40 deg if one does not use the heater? I am not yet a Leaf owner, but plan to buy a 2013 SV once they are available in Minneapolis. Typically, I don't have the heat on in my car until it's below 40.

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Leafin ... simple answer is yes. As the batteries cool the efficiency lowers. Example I pulled into the office yesterday with 5 battery temp bars and about 60 miles left on the GOM. However, the cold front that came through and the cold rain on the undercarriage caused the battery to cool down and dropped about 10 miles off my GOM range 8 hours later when I left. Check out Tony's chart. That temp difference you suggested would equate to about 8 miles of reduced range due to colder batteries.

LeafinThePark said:

Here is a general question....is there really this large of a drop off between 70 deg and say 40 deg if one does not use the heater? I am not yet a Leaf owner, but plan to buy a 2013 SV once they are available in Minneapolis. Typically, I don't have the heat on in my car until it's below 40.

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I spend a great deal of time on this forum helping folks understand range with the LEAF. I just have to cringe when somebody posts such poorly researched stuff as the original article.

Several issues related to heat affect the LEAF.

1- Cold on the battery reduces CAPACITY, at about 1% loss per 4F degrees of battery temperature below 70F. Therefore, a freezing level battery at 30F will have 10% less capacity than a really cold one at -10F will have about 20% less capacity. A new condition LEAF battery at 70F contains 21kWh of usable energy.

2- Using the heater will increase energy usage (and therefore reduce economy and range) by easily up to 30%. There are too many variables to predict in advance how much energy you might use with the heater, but we do know that with zero usage, there will be zero impact to range. The best economy in heating is using only minimal defrost (perhaps cracking a window) and using the seat and steering wheel heaters.

3- Cold air is more dense than warm air, and cold tires have more resistance than warm ones. Plan on 1% reduction in range per 1000 feet decrease in "density altitude".

4- Cold weather generally means "contanimated" roadways with snow, standing water, etc. This increases rolling resistance and reduces range. Again, all but impossible to predict the impact in advance, but it can be substantial (20-30% loss of range).

5- Charging times increase substantially with a cold battery.


There is one advantage to cold batteries, and that is that they will last a long time if you don't freeze them at -30C.