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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:54 am 
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cwerdna wrote:
Wow... very disappointed so far to hear Volusiano's recap. :( Thanks for the info!
Image

Heather Moore and CBS5 was there too, and interviewed a few participants, some of whom you might recognize.

http://www.kpho.com/video?autoStart=tru ... Id=8156098


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:04 am 
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surfingslovak wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
Wow... very disappointed so far to hear Volusiano's recap. :( Thanks for the info!

Heather Moore and CBS5 was there too, and interviewed a few participants, some of whom you might recognize.

http://www.kpho.com/video?autoStart=tru ... Id=8156098

Thanks!

Hmm... I suppose I can look at it from a more optimistic POV and hope that Nissan will use whatever feedback they got to come up w/something that is more satisfactory to those in hot climates and change how they market/sell/lease the vehicle in hot climates.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:56 am 
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palmermd wrote:
evnow wrote:
Volusiano wrote:
Many people expressed that they don't care about the "bar" warranty because it's too fuzzy and inaccurate. They want to see a range warranty instead in terms of miles driven on a charge. Even if Nissan listens and translates the 9 bar warranty into "mile range" warranty, it's still a very lame warranty in my opinion no matter how you dice it, in bars or mile range.

Hmmm .. how exactly does one gaurantee range ? Would that be EPA range ? If so, wouldn't that be same as gauranteeing a % of capacity ?


it would be pretty easy to come up with a protocol for running the car on a dyno. The protocol would set the resistance to a designated resistance for wind and weight...does not really matter if it is exactly accurate, as long at it is the same for every car tested. Nissan could provide a car for the "standard" and all other cars could be tested against that standard. Warranty would be some percentage of the standard. Pretty easy to get access to a dyno anywhere in the world, and results would be universal...no need to worry about wind and terrain.

or... just do a range test on a flat road. The environmental factors won't add any more variability than the existing bar graph and you end up with a number everyone can understand and easily decide if the Leaf will meet their needs: >=65 miles @ 55mph @ 5 years (from range chart). The bars can be an indicator but the miles should be the final determination.

This is what my dealership did for my Leaf when I first brought it in last year - seemed obvious to them, too.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:10 am 
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There's too many variables with a road based range test. Weather will keep one from running one in many parts of the country for much of the year.

The BMS should know how much capacity is remaining to a very precise level after a full discharge/charge cycle. Procedure would be to drain battery to turtle mode, charge to 100% and read the capacity from the BMS computer. Even better - show this value like Tesla does in an "ideal miles remaining" gauge. This value can be cross checked with a wall-energy reading from a calibrated meter.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:11 pm 
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In case you missed this post on the other "Coming soon: Nissan LEAF Town Hall" thread.

Sorry it took so long, but I finally managed to get my video of the Jan 8 Nissan LEAF Town Hall talk posted on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuPQe23vP0Y
It runs close to two hours in length (1:53:17 to be exact), but it's posted in its entirety start to finish.


Enjoy.
Jim


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Just listened to the town hall meeting and came away with an impression that an important message Pheonix drivers were trying to get over to Nissan fell on deaf ears. Here's what I heard regarding the battery issues as expressed by the owners present.

1. Total battery capacity is dropping faster than anyone would like. (Nissan have heard this)
2. Driving range is dropping faster than the battery capacity indicated. (Nissan are *not* hearing this).

It seemed that at least 3 owners expressed that an approximate 30% capacity drop equated to a 50% driving range drop. When the first guy said it I thought yeah he's exaggerating, then another dude said the same and it was echoed by those present. This is probably the reason Phoenix drivers are unhappy with the capacity warranty because capacity does not appear to equate to driving range, and driving range is all that matters.

Here's my pet theory.

Battery capacity in my theory is equivalent to the ceiling.
Driving range is equivalent to the floor, i.e. the floor is when the car is empty.

Judging by the comments made during the meeting, Nissan understand that the ceiling is coming down in hot climates and they underwrite the battery capacity, i.e. they will raise the ceiling if warranted. Great.

Judging by Nissan's responses to the owners they are not understanding the fact that the owners are telling them that the floor appears to be rising by 20% at the same time the ceiling is falling by 30%, essentially cutting driving range in half, not by 30%. To quote Jack Rickard "You live by the turtle and you die by the turtle". What maybe is happening is that when this battery condition exists, not only is overall capacity reduced, but the turtle comes on too early before the car is anywhere near empty.

Nissan accept that the battery capacity gauge is inaccurate, and they promise a better gauge come this spring. However if the capacity gauge is bad, could also the 'charge remaining' gauge be bad as well, dropping faster than the real charge left in the battery and robbing Phoenix drivers of more of their ever precious range?

The problem with fixing the capacity gauge come the spring is that it will read more accurately, and in fact put off the day the Phoenix drivers will be eligible for a battery refresh, who knows how little driving range will be left by then. I think this is the source of their angst and disappointment in the Nissan remedy. Nissan have only addressed one of two issues expressed.

Did I misunderstand the Pheonix owners? Or am I better representing the problem as presented?

It could be that loss of capacity increases owners range anxiety and they are seeing less driving range than actually exists (maybe due to hyper-vigilence). However to hear so many of them express this makes one wonder if there really is a second problem lurking here.

Thoughts? Comments?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm 
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JPWhite wrote:
This is probably the reason Phoenix drivers are unhappy with the capacity warranty because capacity does not appear to equate to driving range, and driving range is all that matters.

I posted my comments at viewtopic.php?p=258782#p258782. I agree that driving range is really what matters and should matter.

Unfortunately, some of the people who stood up to complain about range didn't give enough info (e.g. Charging to 100%? How far are they running it down to? N bars, LBW, VLBW, turtle, n on the GOM?) And, as I mentioned, some seem too dependent on the GOM. The GOM is adding to their frustration and the screwy HVAC behavior doesn't help.

To me, Nissan might need to come up w/a standardized range test that's relatively easy for a dealer to run, either on highways in the area or on a dyno w/very specific settings and speed (kinda like Tony's range test) to evaluate the actual range of "problem cars". Unfortunately, this is somewhat costly in terms of labor due to the time needed and window of available times (e.g. can't run it in heavy traffic).

And, Nissan will need to better educate some of the complainers on driving tips, GOM usage (or non-usage) and HVAC usage. At least if some guy says "my car only get 50 miles". Nissan can run a test and say "see, we ran at 62 mph, HVAC off, on this route, etc. and got x miles".

I'm surprised there haven't been more comments. Those who didn't attend don't have time and/or motivation to spend 2 hours watching? (If so, totally understandable.)

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Last edited by cwerdna on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:33 pm 
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Honestly I would bet that Nissan will do everything it possibly can to assist any Leaf drivers having troubles. There is far too much riding on this car to invite a PR disaster over even a hint of battery concerns. They may eventually do a service bulletin and start swapping out batteries if needed. But I certainly don't think they will leave Leaf owners high and dry -- even, perhaps, after the main warranty runs out. They may offer to extend it for the battery only.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:39 pm 
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hyperlexis wrote:
Honestly I would bet that Nissan will do everything it possibly can to assist any Leaf drivers having troubles. There is far too much riding on this car to invite a PR disaster over even a hint of battery concerns. They may eventually do a service bulletin and start swapping out batteries if needed. But I certainly don't think they will leave Leaf owners high and dry -- even, perhaps, after the main warranty runs out. They may offer to extend it for the battery only.

You must be new here :D and it seems you are.

The Phoenicians and a few other hot climate folks had fought very hard (filing complaints w/dealer, Nissan, BBB, etc.) and had to go to the local TV news media several times to get Nissan's attention. They were getting blown off, "it's normal", etc. Tony Williams' range test got some more attention as well. At least Nissan finally relented somewhat and started doing buybacks and allowing early lease returns on a case by case basis.

They've taken steps in the right direction w/the above, the battery capacity warranty and the town hall meeting. I can only characterize their initial responses to be poor, at best, esp. when you compare it to GM's response after the Chevy Volt battery fire WAY after crash test media hype. (And, I'm not a GM fan, am a Japanese car fan and somewhat of a Nissan fan: having owned two before and my mom owns one now.)

See viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694 for the gory details. Tony's range test is at viewtopic.php?p=228326, if you care.

edit: Fixed the range test link. Thanks Tony!

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Last edited by cwerdna on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:59 pm 
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cwerdna wrote:
See viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694 for the gory details. Tony's range test is at viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694, if you care.


Correct link to the Phoenix Range Test, Sept 15, 2012

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