Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

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Valdemar said:
Does it mean some lucky 2011/12 owners will get their pack replaced with a 30kWh version under warranty?
Hopefully they will at least change their tune and allow 2011-2015 MY's to receive 30kWh packs in the first place.
Didn't some of the class action language require they use the current production packs for replacements? Shouldn't there still be a bunch of 2012's that have yet to age-out of their warranty that should fall into this category?
 
I'm puzzled by some of the technical aspects of a battery upgrade;
1) The after market pack from hybrid auto that sits in the rear parcel area & charges from the onboard charger via its own BMS apparently works.
2) Some folks are claiming however that a replacement higher capacity pack won't. Their rationale is that the car computer can handle declining gids (aging battery) but not extra gids (bigger pack).
3) The subtlety between 1) & 2) is lost on me. If the car computer can cope with the extra capacity of a paralleled pack why wouldn't it cope with a bigger pack?
 
Has anybody put both a 24kwh 'lizard battery' Leaf and 30kwh Leaf on lifts, side by side, to see if the panels covering the packs are the same, and then take the panels off to see if the electrical connections are similiar? I recently asked a Leaf technician at Avondale Nissan if the 30kwh packs can be fitted to 2011 Leafs, but he said he hasn't had to remove any 30kwh packs yet, so he couldn't answer my question. I am sure someone on this forum knows a Leaf technician that can find out whats needed to put the 30kwh packs into a 2011 Leaf i.e. different connectors, underbody panels, etc.
 
FOr information on pack replacements and the differences between the 2011/2012 and later packs visit the Pacific area discussion in the groups section. Look for postings by 'COR' who has done some exchanges. It's great information.
 
Coronado54 said:
FOr information on pack replacements and the differences between the 2011/2012 and later packs visit the Pacific area discussion in the groups section. Look for postings by 'COR' who has done some exchanges. It's great information.

Thanks, good to know. Here is a link to at least one of the threads, going back about 6 months and continuing through present-day.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21997
Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?
 
Here is one answer to the question about a 30 kWh battery pack in an older Leaf - and that answer is no.

https://transportevolved.com/2015/09/11/confirmed-30-kwh-nissan-leaf-battery-packs-incompatible-with-older-nissan-leafs/
 
Dooglas said:
Here is one answer to the question about a 30 kWh battery pack in an older Leaf - and that answer is no.

https://transportevolved.com/2015/09/11/confirmed-30-kwh-nissan-leaf-battery-packs-incompatible-with-older-nissan-leafs/

Thanks, you're right, I think the answer is "no", at least the official answer from Nissan. As was probably remarked here over time, in the opinion of some, this arguably marks a missed opportunity for Nissan to work with early adopters, or purchasers of used earliest systems, to keep those vehicles relevant and useful, and at competitive prices.

It also begs the question of whether any cottage industry might spring up of 3rd parties retrofitting larger batteries into early Leafs. That effort does seem to be there, though I am not sure exactly where it presently stands and noting it does carry the usual severe drawbacks such as that the vehicles might then (I guess) be well outside of manufacturer warranties and support.

Opinions my own.
 
The biggest problem that I see is Nissan requiring the battery electronics to be paired with the car electronics, and keeping a tight control on the ability to do so. Until someone finds a way to complete that process, without a Nissan Tech and tools, the only upgrade option is to crack open the battery and replace the individual cells.
 
Dooglas said:
Here is one answer to the question about a 30 kWh battery pack in an older Leaf - and that answer is no.

https://transportevolved.com/2015/09/11/confirmed-30-kwh-nissan-leaf-battery-packs-incompatible-with-older-nissan-leafs/
This doesn't make sense to me. They state that the 24kwh and 30kwh batteries are physically the same dimensions and fit in the same shape hole in the chassis, ok so the 30kwh will "bolt in" to an early car question answered.

They state that the reason it cannot actually be used with the 24kwh Leaf is because the BMS will have to be different. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the BMS inside the sealed battery module with the cells and an independent system from the rest of the car?

And if it's not then shouldn't that just be a matter of also changing out the BMS? Of course Nissan does not want to be bound to spend any more money on warranty replacements than needed, so I would not expect them to state the batteries are interchangeable publicly. I also know Nissan is not stupid and they would not completely re-design the Leaf for a mid-gen battery upgrade so the changes must be modular and most likely minor. For instance when you swap engines in a car you usually also swap the ECU. Maybe you will also need to change the motor controller or something else but it's almost certainly not "impossible."

The software unlock is most likely the biggest hurdle to the whole thing and that is just a matter of time until it's either in the public domain or licensed to a 3rd party/done as a service.

None of us will know until an independent Leaf specialist gets ahold of the first wrecked 30kwh Leaf, which probably won't be long!
 
I have no doubt that if the market is there that somebody will come up with a 3rd party solution for a batter replacement . The question will be if enough of a market exists for a 3rd party solution.
 
gbrance said:
The question will be if enough of a market exists for a 3rd party solution.
Due partially to Nissan's battery ID system, any 3rd party would have to make a deal with
Nissan to get that technical data. But since Nissan makes the batteries themselves, under what
situation would Nissan create a competitor? No loan would be made without seeing an
agreement from Nissan. Also the price has to be low enough, I would like to buy a 30kwh
pack, but not if at $20,000.
 
http://www.automobile-propre.com/location-batterie-renault-vehicules-electriques/
Location batterie : et si Renault avait finalement raison ?
16 Fév 2017 greenemotion Voiture électrique 85 commentaires

using google translate we have:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.automobile-propre.com/location-batterie-renault-vehicules-electriques/&usg=ALkJrhhK4xRdy-XdbTV7LQ1CurNkMgb7fw

"...A new offer to come: Renault ZOE used with 300 km of actual range

"Given the prices currently traded in the second-hand ZOEs in circulation in 2013 and / or with more than 50,000 km on the counter, some potential buyers have taken out their calculators to get a better idea of ??the acquisition cost Of a used ZOE + battery change.

"The number is then without appeal: for less than 12 k € (to which it is obviously necessary to add the cost of the monthly rental of the battery), it is now possible to drive in an EV with a real range of between 250 and 300 Kilometers. An offer that no other manufacturer is able to offer to date...."

Where it says "without appeal" .... something seems wrong with the translation, as the rest of the message seems to be the deal may be appealing to some.

In any event, this seems like a good deal to me. I would consider paying EUR 12k for a vehicle and an additional monthly battery lease fee for a new battery, especially if it could get me something on the order of 100-150 EPA miles per month.

Several things aren't clear to me about this article including what deals are actually offered and which ones might simply be the author of the article offering their opinion.
 
Yes, Renault offers current Zoe-drivers an upgrade to a 40Kwh batterypack.

The former Zoe has a lease construction for the pack. But within some month you can order the new pack. They charge you fittingcosts (arround 3500 EUR) and off couse still a monthly fee for the lease of the pack. You wouldn't be owner of the pack. If you buy the new Zoe you can choose to lease or buy the pack. So if you buy a "old" Zoe you must invest another 3500 to get the pack fitted. That are costs you make but you still will not be owner of the pack.

The offer to upgrade is an unique selling point. The reason why Nissan doesn't do that reminds me of Kodak. They invented the digital camera but put it on the self because the film was selling so good. The a tirdparty started to selling them and it was to late.
 
Sjabba - thanks for this information, I appreciate it, very useful.

I hadn't heard the story about Kodak and the digital camera in quite that way but am curious now, so will try to read it. Assuming it's right, a cautionary aspect of that might be that in a new industry, even if it seems like it might not in some ways be very competitive (since it is new), it is dangerous for a company to think that it can make that kind of choice (to not pursue a solution that might benefit some of their customers) and still maintain their competitive edge.

Sjabba said:
Yes, Renault offers current Zoe-drivers an upgrade to a 40Kwh batterypack.

The former Zoe has a lease construction for the pack. But within some month you can order the new pack. They charge you fittingcosts (arround 3500 EUR) and off couse still a monthly fee for the lease of the pack. You wouldn't be owner of the pack. If you buy the new Zoe you can choose to lease or buy the pack. So if you buy a "old" Zoe you must invest another 3500 to get the pack fitted. That are costs you make but you still will not be owner of the pack.

The offer to upgrade is an unique selling point. The reason why Nissan doesn't do that reminds me of Kodak. They invented the digital camera but put it on the self because the film was selling so good. The a tirdparty started to selling them and it was to late.
 
jlsoaz said:
Where it says "without appeal" .... something seems wrong with the translation, as the rest of the message seems to be the deal may be appealing to some
My guess is that was a literal translation of an expression intended to mean "indisputable"...
 
parkwright said:
In other words, stop throwing good money after bad, cut your losses, don't buy or recommend a Leaf :x

Hi:

I personally would not go this far. It's still a very thin market with very few options and if someone came to me for advice on buying a new BEV, and was ok to suffer the depreciation on buying a new car (I generally am not, regardless of which car) then I'd say the upcoming Leaf looks competitive in its way with the Bolt and the Model 3... pretty much the only decent-range BEV options under $45k. I have lost track of whether Nissan has clarified making a 2018 that is fully competitive in range with those other two, and that would introduce some complication to the conversation, but assuming they come around to offer one that is up there in range, then it would have to be part of the conversation. Indeed, with so much experience and a fairly attractive-looking offering, I think a 2018 Leaf, if Nissan offers it with ~60 kWh, looks competitive to me.

Yes, there are pros and cons I would offer, and of course there are many complications, and the 100-150 mile range would certainly come into the conversation, and I would mention that gen1 Leaf buyers went through very steep depreciation. While arguably some of that is the math of the federal tax credit and some of it is early adopter inevitability, an additional reason is (arguably) that there didn't seem to be a good forward-thinking "gen1.5" battery replacement option offered, the way Renault maybe has done in Europe.

If a different conversation took place and someone asked me about buying a used Leaf, I wouldn't emphasize it as much against other used competitors, both BEV and PHEV. To be sure, it might have been really cool to recommend it if Nissan had been able to come up with some interesting official retrofit (such as a $10k 40 kWh battery replacement). However, they didn't do this, and so be it. It wouldn't make me leave the used Leaf entirely out of the conversation, but I would be very careful about it. For example, I'd recommend a used Volt for most purposes over a used Leaf, unless the person absolutely could not tolerate burning any more gasoline at all, and even then, I'd try to understand if they really could live with just a very short range used BEV.
 
I would never spend $10K on a battery, even if it was a 40Kw battery.

I think the real issue here is NOT asking, "would I recommend a Leaf", because I don't care what other people do I have not stake in what car people buy.. Most of us here dealing with the battery issue BECAUSE WE OWN our Leaf cars, and the issue is "What do I do with my car when she don't go no more?" Do I junk it, sell it for $3000, or spend money on a replacement battery.

Although IT WOULD BE NICE to have a bigger battery, if it not possible...... so it goes. BUT if people are complaining that they should get a 40KW battery replacement at a minimal price, I think that that is a little bit of greed showing.

Anyone who has a Leaf with a bad battery has either owned it a long time, or bought it at a good price. Considering how new car prices escalate like the Rocky Mountains, spending even $5000 on a battery replacement is certainly a good deal to get a futuristic car. Truth is that you got $7500 off on the price of the car, and if you got the S trim, you saved another $5000 on the price of the car. So, spending another $5000 to get another 80K miles out of that car is an infinite BARGAIN!! Hopefully, the price of the battery will drop from $5000 to about $3000 soon... Or Nissan will offer a discount???
 
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