How did you justify a LEAF purchase?

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recmob

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
57
Location
Cocoa, FL
Yeah I know a very loaded question. I was able to take a extended test drive earlier this week. Picked up a new SL that just came off the transporter a few days earlier, drove it home that night for the wife to see. L1 charge through the night, then drive 44 miles to work the next day (in Florida). Charge L1 again up until I left for the day, stop at a friends home for L2 charge just to make sure I got it back to the dealership with enough charge.

I'm very impressed with the LEAF. Its roomy, comfortable, handles nicely, and of course quiet. Like everyone else I wish it had more range on a charge. I can charge using L2 from both home and work (after wiring of course) so that isn't an issue. I'm mostly interested in the LEAF to reduce my transportation expenses and pay down other business debt.

I've looked at leasing versus purchase, and no matter I slice it (wanting to justify this), I keep coming back to this gut feeling its too expensive. I can purchase a Versa for half the cost of a LEAF. And though I see comments from others saying their cost to drive (IIRC) was around 3 cents per mile. That's great. But I don't see any references to adding in the cost of a new pack into those numbers. Without knowing exactly at what point the pack will not be usable for my driving range, makes if difficult to determine feasibility.

I have found a deal on a 2015 'S' model with Charge Pkg/Charge Port. I don't need all the extras that the SL/SV has and would be fine with a 'S'. With $3500.00 NMAC my price would be $21k. The dealer has emailed me: Purchase: 1.9% APR, 60 months, $2,000.00 down, and $497.80 month (Tax included). That seems excessively high, as there own payment calculator shows in $330.00 range. Granted that's not including tax, title, etc. But hard to believe that justifies a monthly payment increase of 50%!

Driving a LEAF would save me a ton on fuel. I calculate I would save $7800.00 in fuel over my current diesel truck (over a 50,000 miles), yet the replacement pack at $5500.00 + tax + install would nearly wipe out the savings.

The again, if Nissan does indeed come out with a better range battery in say the next 2 years, is that battery going to be compatible with the current vehicles? As a mfg, I would think they would change it, to force sales of newer cars. And itf that happens, then the value of the previous cars will not be anywhere as good.

I hate buying cars and the whole dealer dance :(
 
recmob said:
Yeah I know a very loaded question. I was able to take a extended test drive earlier this week. Picked up a new SL that just came off the transporter a few days earlier, drove it home that night for the wife to see. L1 charge through the night, then drive 44 miles to work the next day (in Florida). Charge L1 again up until I left for the day, stop at a friends home for L2 charge just to make sure I got it back to the dealership with enough charge.

I'm very impressed with the LEAF. Its roomy, comfortable, handles nicely, and of course quiet. Like everyone else I wish it had more range on a charge. I can charge using L2 from both home and work (after wiring of course) so that isn't an issue. I'm mostly interested in the LEAF to reduce my transportation expenses and pay down other business debt.

I've looked at leasing versus purchase, and no matter I slice it (wanting to justify this), I keep coming back to this gut feeling its too expensive. I can purchase a Versa for half the cost of a LEAF. And though I see comments from others saying their cost to drive (IIRC) was around 3 cents per mile. That's great. But I don't see any references to adding in the cost of a new pack into those numbers. Without knowing exactly at what point the pack will not be usable for my driving range, makes if difficult to determine feasibility.

I have found a deal on a 2015 'S' model with Charge Pkg/Charge Port. I don't need all the extras that the SL/SV has and would be fine with a 'S'. With $3500.00 NMAC my price would be $21k. The dealer has emailed me: Purchase: 1.9% APR, 60 months, $2,000.00 down, and $497.80 month (Tax included). That seems excessively high, as there own payment calculator shows in $330.00 range. Granted that's not including tax, title, etc. But hard to believe that justifies a monthly payment increase of 50%!

Driving a LEAF would save me a ton on fuel. I calculate I would save $7800.00 in fuel over my current diesel truck (over a 50,000 miles), yet the replacement pack at $5500.00 + tax + install would nearly wipe out the savings.

The again, if Nissan does indeed come out with a better range battery in say the next 2 years, is that battery going to be compatible with the current vehicles? As a mfg, I would think they would change it, to force sales of newer cars. And itf that happens, then the value of the previous cars will not be anywhere as good.

I hate buying cars and the whole dealer dance :(
Click to expand...

When you are calculating your monthly payment are you taking into account the $7,500 tax credit in the price or without it? If you are purchasing it will be in there and you will have to claim on your taxes. My guess is that is the difference.
 
Before the '15 model year, purchasing was a bad idea anywhere it gets hot for more than a day at a time. Now that we *think* the '15 and later batteries will hold up better to heat, it becomes an option. However, if you want to just save money, lease the car you like - maybe an SV unless you don't need the heatpump either. You will still have the option to purchase it at lease's end, or to extend your lease another 6-12 months at least. Get the best lease deal you can (not from the $495 a month dealer!), but keep in mind that while making a down payment usually results in a better deal, you lose that money if the car gets Totaled...
 
This is the same weird "justification" scenario that we've been trying to deal with on the Prius forums for a long time too. A Versa is not a Leaf. The Leaf is not a high end car, but it isn't the bottom of the barrel. It has some nice features that have nothing to do with it being electric and other features that are just nice to have. It is quiet, smooth, no maintenance and just fun to drive. Those are not easily added into a monetary spreadsheet.

I justified the purchase because it is an awesome car. $21K for a fully loaded brand new car including all taxes and registration and everything is very reasonable.

It sounds like in your case, the $21K is really the $30K price minus the $7500 federal rebate. So if you are financing, you are financing the whole actual amount of $28K-$36K depending on trim/options. Then at tax time you will get back $7500 federal (if you are eligible) and in my state you would get back almost $6000 in state rebates. That's my guess as to why the monthly payments are high.
 
My truck cost about $0.48 a mile to drive (ammortized purchase price over 200k miles per mile $0.16, maintenance $0.05, gas $0.25, tires $0.02). It is getting old and I would like to still have a truck, so I want to keep the miles off of it for commuting, but keep it garaged for big family trips, hauling crap, etc. Most of my trips are well within the Leaf's range.

My used Leaf breaks even at about 45k miles (ammortized purchase price over 45k miles per mile $0.33, EVSE $0.02, maintenance $0.02, electricity $0.04, tires $0.02).

If i keep it much past 50k more miles I am expecting that I will likely want to replace the battery for another $6-7k to get another 80-100k out of it at a cost per mile of roughly $0.15-0.20 depending on if any major repairs crop up. My guess is that at that point I will dump it and grab another electric with a significantly better range. Hopefully some Leaf 2's will be coming off lease, or the Model 3 will be out.

Compared to my wife's Ford Focus the break even is more like ~100k miles, which was less compelling. When she is due for a new ride in a few years we will have to see what the options are.
 
I couldn't justify the purchase, but I justified the lease. I was spending $350-$450 per month on gas alone driving my Crown Vic. The lease and electricity cost of the LEAF is less than that, so I pulled the trigger. In the end, it's not about going green, cost savings, or even driving something high tech or unique. I just like the experience of driving an electric car.
 
For me I paid less than what the Versa would cost. And it should be much cheaper to own. I did comprehensive analysis. Short summary is:
For the 2015 S w/charging package I paid $28,500 + $700 (dealer fee) - $3500 (NMAC rebate) - $7500 (federal tax credit) - $5000 (state tax credit) = $13,200.

I estimate that it will be worth about $10k in 5 years (based on many sources like Edmunds, typical new vehicle depreciation, prices of used Leafs on the market now, etc). The battery will have degraded (lowering resale), replacement batteries will be somewhat cheaper and/or longer range than they are now (raising resale), the tax credits will likely be depleted (raising resale), technology advances will be in the market--but probably not dramatic advances beyond battery size/price (lowering resale somewhat but probably not a ton because those advances will cost more in the short term). It's a guess. If battery technology hit phenomenal breakthroughs, I could always just buy one of those amazing new batteries.

So I'm not looking at that much depreciation. The electricity costs me 1 cent per mile vs the 13 cents per mile for my old car. I don't drive long distances in the car so even a dramatically degraded battery should be OK. In the end I estimate it will save me about $2k/year over 5 years versus buying a similar new ICE (like a Corolla or Fit). And since I intend to keep it forever (and never buy another ICE), given my usage patterns and my expectation that the tax credits will be history in the medium term, buying appeared to be a better financial decision than leasing, as best I could estimate. YMMV.

And I just much prefer driving electric. It's so calm and smooth and the acceleration is fun. I enjoy the whole experience. Sitting in traffic in an ICE always irritated me as the engine idled. But it doesn't bother me in the Leaf anymore (other than wasting my time).
 
Amazing new batteries will almost certainly not be backward compatible with the Leaf. You will have to buy or lease Leaf 2.0 to get batteries with more capacity than the current Leaf.
 
Our primary use was for my wife's work. She runs between schools (school nurse with 6,600 kids at 8 schools) 3-6 miles every hour or two. Our VW TDI wasn't liking the short trips, well no ICE does, the Leaf is fine with it. So for us there just wasn't a better fit in a vehicle for the way we use it. We also use it to run the kids to swim practice or friends, mostly short trips, under 10 miles RT as well. Financially it will allow us to keep the VW TDI longer and use for it longer trips and use the Van less as well, keeping it running longer as well.

We did lease it, mostly to get the $7,500 off the top without messing with taxes. We might or might not buy it when the lease is up depending on the Leaf 2 changes.
 
I questioned the dealer (offering the $21k price) if they were factoring in the $7500.00 tax credit. The answer was 'no', but they were factoring in the NMAC $3500.00 so the real price of the car is $24500.00 The NMAC of $3500.00 is only applied with the financing through NMAC. Taxes and registration are over and above.

Because I'm self employed, I cannot count on the $7500.00 credit. Some years I may $5k in federal taxes, others may only be $1500.00 and I never know until the CPA works his magic. Florida (as far as I can find) does not have additional rebates.

The odd part is I have quotes from 2 dealers, 180 miles apart both for leases and purchase. Both came back with purchase prices on the 'S' model with quick charge package very close to $500/month. When they both came back with (lease) pricing of over $325/month I asked what happened to the $199 for 36/months. They both indicated that was the 'S' without quick charge package. When I pointed out the quick charge package option was only $1700.00 yet they wanted $125.00 a month (over the $199) for 36 months that they were charging more then double the $1700.00 option cost.

If I could get the lease in the low $200's, and adding in electricity it becomes viable. But paying $325/month and adding in electricity I'm only saving between $55 and $75 a month over the cost of diesel I now put in the truck. Leasing would mean I'm basically forced to buyout at lease end due to the mileage I drive which is roughly 23,000 miles annually.

2k1Toaster said:
I justified the purchase because it is an awesome car. $21K for a fully loaded brand new car including all taxes and registration and everything is very reasonable.

It sounds like in your case, the $21K is really the $30K price minus the $7500 federal rebate. So if you are financing, you are financing the whole actual amount of $28K-$36K depending on trim/options. Then at tax time you will get back $7500 federal (if you are eligible) and in my state you would get back almost $6000 in state rebates. That's my guess as to why the monthly payments are high.
Click to expand...
 
If you're self-employed...LEASE...the fed rebate goes to the dealer and factors in the monthly.

And if you are worried about Gen 1 LEAF resale in 3 years.....LEASE....and Nissan is taking the risk.
 
smkettner said:
If it is just economics there is no way to justify a new car at all.
I smile every day in my EV and that is justification enough for me.
Click to expand...
+1 Financially, I could barely justify leasing it, but after years of advocating for EVs, there was just no way I wasn't going to get one, if at all possible. The smile or 'good feeling' from the ride (and many other intangibles, many related to petroleum/dependence) fully justified the acquisition, and made it inevitable.
 
I wanted an EV, the LEAF was available, had the capabilities that I needed, and apart from being an EV, was a reasonably good car in addition.

People try to do all kinds of math to rationalize their decisions, but really a new car purchase is NEVER about best value for your transportation dollar. If that's your goal, buy a 15 year-old car; drive the heck out of it, don't spend on maintenance other than keeping the fluids topped off, and extract its remaining value.

New cars are about satisfying wants, not needs.
 
Why do you want the QC option? Sounds like you don't need it.

Since the QC option is popular, it probably doesn't get discounted as much over and above the option cost.

I honestly expect the battery replacement cost to go down in a couple of years. While it isn't directly comparable, it is impressive to see what the Prius battery price has done. $4k down to $1k (non Toyota rebuild). Obviously the Leaf is a much bigger battery and Nissan is probably losing money on the replacement. But in 5 years, I'd be quite surprised to pay $5500 for a replacement. So that optimism helped justify for me. I also expect to go 7 years between replacements.

It is amazing to have people pay $200 for a lease and save $200 in fuel. That is an easy justification. That even neglects depreciation which is usually the most expensive part of driving.

Look at a Versa lease ($130?) and add in gas. Then drive a Versa and Leaf back to back.

The best value proposition for a Leaf is a typical 2 car household. Typically you save $100 a month in fuel and the lease payment is less than a comparable car. And you have a backup ICE. No brainer. The only expensive thing is you learn to hate driving an ICE and then you are looking to buy a Tesla......
 
recmob said:
...
If I could get the lease in the low $200's, and adding in electricity it becomes viable. But paying $325/month and adding in electricity I'm only saving between $55 and $75 a month over the cost of diesel I now put in the truck. Leasing would mean I'm basically forced to buyout at lease end due to the mileage I drive which is roughly 23,000 miles annually.
Click to expand...
I have been reading your 15 posts in four threads since Oct. 12 and been planning to respond but you have asked a multitude of questions and have not yet had time to analyze fully and respond.
If what you want is lowest cost, as others have said a new vehicle no matter what the type, can never be justified.
But you have been driving a low miles per gallon diesel truck?
Does your business use need a truck?
If non truck is OK, your lowest cost is something used with about 100,000 miles on it.
Say a Passat diesel or Prius.

But if you want relatively new, is another question.
Your tax liability does not support LEAF purchase.
But as you say 26,000 miles per year on lease will pretty much mean you need to buy out the lease.
The really cheap leases seem to have disappeared.
No more $199 per month.
More like $240 to $265 if you find the right dealer.
But if you can find that, a 2015 LEAF lease with planned buy out may make sense.
Electric cost will be around 3 to 4 cents per mile.
But you are correct that three years down the road a new battery that you may need will probably be around 12 cents per mile.
But you then get three more years if driving vehicle six years is OK and your six years cents per mile is pretty good.
If cost is your only factor, buy something used and buy gas or diesel.
But if you want new LEAF is a pretty good choice.
But in your situation has to be lease with planned buy out.
 
Recmob,

I purchased my loaded 2011 SL LEAF for 24k after all rebates. I save $3000 a year in gas. I currently have $10k saved in fuel costs minus $6k for battery #2 that will be installed at year 5. At ten years of ownership, I'll have $24k saved from fuel savings. I'll still have an around town degraded battery Leaf with a $24k deposit for my next 2021 EV. Made sense for me to buy.
 
Tim,

My Cummins Ram 3500 gets 22 mpg @ 60 mph on the highway. I don't need the truck for everyday use, but I tow a 24' box trailer a few times per year. The truck currently has 286,000 miles on it, and I'm starting to see some expensive maintenance on a few things over the last couple of years. Over the past 5 years, I've spent $39,000.00 between fuel and maintenance, insurance. Thankfully its paid for! Purchasing a newer vehicle will allow parking the truck and drive when needed only. I've toyed with 'used but nearly new' versus 'brand new' and I'm more inclined to go with new, only because I will know the maintenance history and any problems from the start. Never really know with used.

I've thought of used Leaf and buying a new pack when the time comes. And I'd entertain that idea if the used Leaf is a low enough price.

I used to make biodiesel for my truck, and the economics are worth it. But I no longer have the time to collect and process the used grease. Electrics intrigue me. I fly electric models and helis, and I'm currently designing an electric powered ultralight aircraft so the Leaf fits right in.

Honestly I'm not crazy about going to back a gasser. I bought diesel for the towing capacity, but also because of how long diesels hold up over gas engines.

TimLee said:
recmob said:
...
If I could get the lease in the low $200's, and adding in electricity it becomes viable. But paying $325/month and adding in electricity I'm only saving between $55 and $75 a month over the cost of diesel I now put in the truck. Leasing would mean I'm basically forced to buyout at lease end due to the mileage I drive which is roughly 23,000 miles annually.
Click to expand...
I have been reading your 15 posts in four threads since Oct. 12 and been planning to respond but you have asked a multitude of questions and have not yet had time to analyze fully and respond.
If what you want is lowest cost, as others have said a new vehicle no matter what the type, can never be justified.
But you have been driving a low miles per gallon diesel truck?
Does your business use need a truck?
If non truck is OK, your lowest cost is something used with about 100,000 miles on it.
Say a Passat diesel or Prius.

But if you want relatively new, is another question.
Your tax liability does not support LEAF purchase.
But as you say 26,000 miles per year on lease will pretty much mean you need to buy out the lease.
The really cheap leases seem to have disappeared.
No more $199 per month.
More like $240 to $265 if you find the right dealer.
But if you can find that, a 2015 LEAF lease with planned buy out may make sense.
Electric cost will be around 3 to 4 cents per mile.
But you are correct that three years down the road a new battery that you may need will probably be around 12 cents per mile.
But you then get three more years if driving vehicle six years is OK and your six years cents per mile is pretty good.
If cost is your only factor, buy something used and buy gas or diesel.
But if you want new LEAF is a pretty good choice.
But in your situation has to be lease with planned buy out.
Click to expand...
 
do you like buying gasoline and all that goes with it?

make your own list of why gasoline buying and burning should make you sick at heart when there is a viable and cost-efficient alternative.
go figure.
 

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