135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

^ Cruise control included on the S! Not that you can cruise long enough in a Leaf for your foot to get tired in the first place. So what's left? Looks like the heat pump heat system is about the only reason to go for the upgraded models. I can get fancy wheels elsewhere if I want.

LTLFTcomposite said:

^ Cruise control included on the S! Not that you can cruise long enough in a Leaf for your foot to get tired in the first place. So what's left? Looks like the heat pump heat system is about the only reason to go for the upgraded models. I can get fancy wheels elsewhere if I want.

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The real advantage of cruise control is to control the speed and keep from speeding, which is easy to do in the quiet LEAF. I like to just dial in the speed limit, if I have cars behind me, or lower if I am trying to stretch mileage and have no cars behind me (no multi-lane roads here). If one is always driving in congested conditions with stoplights and the like, I can see how cruise wouldn't be much use. But I find it way easier to keep a steady speed with cruise than without.

I agree that the new features on the S model make it almost pointless to go with the SV/SL. The only significant difference seems to be the heater, which I rarely use. B mode + 6.0 kW charging + cruise is everything the old S model didn't have that I would have wanted. Nissan suggests the dealers order only 10% S models. I'd figure that they would sell at least 50% S if they don't make them hard to get. But the profit margins on the SV/SL must be much greater so that's what they will push, I suppose.

evnow said:

GRA said:

I'm thinking of people living in Kansas City, Twin Cities, Detroit, Buffalo etc. and their suburbs, i.e. mainstream urban/suburban America. We have to get past the early adopter crowd in the next generation, if EVs are to prosper. And we need to do it before 2017, because who knows what will happen politically then.

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No we don't need to appeal to those people to get to 5% market share.

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I'm at a loss as to your reasoning on that. BEVs are sold almost exclusively in major metropolitan markets, because with their limited range and limited infrastructure, those are the places they make the most sense. Consider just the 59 Metropolitan areas with a population greater than 1 million:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_of_the_United_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most of them experience cold winters and/or hot summers. In order to get to 5%, BEVs will have to have enough range that a fair number of customers' will be comfortable with it being their _only_ car in their climate, as well as appealing to suburban owners with longer commutes who have multiple cars. Either is going to take a lot more range than they currently have.

While I think Anton Wahlman is going way overboard on any claims of 'proof' that Nissan will be introducing the car in the topic title, I do think, along with jlsoaz, that he has hit the nail on the head re what owners want for their next BEV.

dgpcolorado said:

But I find it way easier to keep a steady speed with cruise than without.

I agree that the new features on the S model make it almost pointless to go with the SV/SL. The only significant difference seems to be the heater, which I rarely use. B mode + 6.0 kW charging + cruise is everything the old S model didn't have that I would have wanted. Nissan suggests the dealers order only 10% S models. I'd figure that they would sell at least 50% S if they don't make them hard to get. But the profit margins on the SV/SL must be much greater so that's what they will push, I suppose.

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Agreed on CC, and B-mode is nice. But the heat pump really makes a difference to range in moderate winter climates like the Bay Area. Add that to the 'S' and double the range, and it would fit my desires better than the SV or SL. I could see getting one like that, but only if it had a liquid-cooled and heated TMS or an acceptable capacity warranty, because I won't take anything Nissan says about the battery on faith.

GRA said:

...I could see getting one like that, but only if it had a liquid-cooled and heated TMS or an acceptable capacity warranty, because I won't take anything Nissan says about the battery on faith.

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Since Nissan isn't going to do that, you will need to look elsewhere; Tesla seems to be the only car that seems to meet your requirements (save for price, perhaps — that certainly is the case for me!).

As for the heater, dressing for the weather, preheating, and using the steering wheel heater works fine for me. But I don't have a spouse/kids factor to consider, as many do. Nor do I park outside in below zero weather, as some do. But the Bay Area? It doesn't get cold there!

GRA said:

Add that to the 'S' and double the range, and it would fit my desires better than the SV or SL. I could see getting one like that, but only if it had a liquid-cooled and heated TMS or an acceptable capacity warranty, because I won't take anything Nissan says about the battery on faith.

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2200 posts and still waiting for "double the range". How many posts before you get your ideal EV ?

ps : There is an EV with double the range and liquid cooled battery. It is called Model S. Apparently you want a Model S for $30k.

evnow said:

GRA said:

Add that to the 'S' and double the range, and it would fit my desires better than the SV or SL. I could see getting one like that, but only if it had a liquid-cooled and heated TMS or an acceptable capacity warranty, because I won't take anything Nissan says about the battery on faith.

Click to expand...

2200 posts and still waiting for "double the range". How many posts before you get your ideal EV ?

ps : There is an EV with double the range and liquid cooled battery. It is called Model S. Apparently you want a Model S for $30k.

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haha. good one. Who would not want a Model S for $30k. I'll be purchasing a Model E when its available...but even then I'm expecting to pay about $50k.

palmermd said:

I'll be purchasing a Model E when its available...but even then I'm expecting to pay about $50k.

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Lease it and you won't!

evnow said:

GRA said:

Add that to the 'S' and double the range, and it would fit my desires better than the SV or SL. I could see getting one like that, but only if it had a liquid-cooled and heated TMS or an acceptable capacity warranty, because I won't take anything Nissan says about the battery on faith.

Click to expand...

2200 posts and still waiting for "double the range". How many posts before you get your ideal EV ?

ps : There is an EV with double the range and liquid cooled battery. It is called Model S. Apparently you want a Model S for $30k.

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Nope, the S is much too big for my needs, and there's no need to wait for the ideal EV, just one that at least meets my basic requirements. The 2014 LEAF S didn't; the 2015 LEAF S takes a step closer, but still isn't there.

I want what will hopefully follow the Model E (Model Y?), an AWD small CUV for no more than $35k, which is what I can afford and can see paying for in a car, although I'd prefer it to be less. I'm willing (and have) to wait for the manufacturers to build a PEV/FCEV to meet my needs - barring a huge and sustained spike in the price of gas, I'll keep my 2003 Forester until then. If it craps out in the meantime, I'd look at the A3 and coming Golf GTE Sportwagens, and even the Outlander although it's bigger and less responsive than I'd like.

dgpcolorado said:

GRA said:

...I could see getting one like that, but only if it had a liquid-cooled and heated TMS or an acceptable capacity warranty, because I won't take anything Nissan says about the battery on faith.

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Since Nissan isn't going to do that, you will need to look elsewhere; Tesla seems to be the only car that seems to meet your requirements (save for price, perhaps — that certainly is the case for me!).

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We'll have to see what Nissan does re a warranty, but I was speaking rhetorically. Nissan has so alienated me by their lack of business ethics over the LEAF's battery, that I very much doubt I'll ever again be a customer of theirs. Pity, my 2000 was the car I most enjoyed, and my friend's 510 and another's B210 were bulletproof.

dgpcolorado said:

As for the heater, dressing for the weather, preheating, and using the steering wheel heater works fine for me. But I don't have a spouse/kids factor to consider, as many do. Nor do I park outside in below zero weather, as some do. But the Bay Area? It doesn't get cold there!

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See my previous post. As for the Bay Area not getting cold, remember what Mark Twain apparently never said: "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco." It's a question of how I dress and my metabolism (the only settings it has are 'max' and 'off' - while moving I generate a tremendous amount of heat, but next to nothing when I'm sitting still). I'm in shorts year round, but I know that the weather here can change very quickly as you pass from one micro-climate to the next, and feel a hell of a lot colder due to all the moisture in the air plus the wind chill. I don't know how the people in the Central Valley can stand sitting under the Tule fog for weeks on end every winter, it's cold, clammy and depressing.

So, although the temp rarely goes below freezing here, it's often uncomfortable wearing shorts and no or a light shirt while driving, and I'm unwilling to spend upwards of $30k on a car that can't keep me reasonably comfortable in whatever clothing I happen to be wearing for when I get out of the car. Since I need both range AND warmth the heat pump makes a great deal of sense here, as it will be very efficient in our climate. I have heated seats, but owing to some past frostbite in my toes and fingers my circulation is poor in those areas, so want some hot air blowing on them and my legs.

For those who experience single digit or colder winters the heat pump's value is a lot less, although it will help the range spring and fall.

ILETRIC said:

palmermd said:

I'll be purchasing a Model E when its available...but even then I'm expecting to pay about $50k.

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Lease it and you won't!

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Are they planning on leasing? I thought the best you could do was buy it and they would offer a guaranteed price to buy it back. But is that price less than what you could sell it for on the open market? Anyway, I didn't know they had a lease option.

GRA said:

For those who experience single digit or colder winters the heat pump's value is a lot less, although it will help the range spring and fall.

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That's true isn't it? Have to keep that in mind when I think I really need the heat pump option. In deep cold, it's just as hungry as the resistance heater I have now. Heck, when it gets over forty after a cold spell, I often roll down the window to cool off.

DNAinaGoodWay said:

ILETRIC said:

Lease it and you won't!

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Are they planning on leasing? I thought the best you could do was buy it and they would offer a guaranteed price to buy it back. But is that price less than what you could sell it for on the open market? Anyway, I didn't know they had a lease option.

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They don't lease, so far as I am aware. Tesla doesn't have an in-house finance arm like most large car companies, e.g. Nissan and NMAC. They do have deals with US Bank and Wells Fargo to finance the cars. But the assumption — likely correct — is that anyone in the market for a Model S will easily qualify for the $7500 federal tax credit and can use that to offset the 10% down payment. Leasing the car and letting the lease company collect the tax credit for use as the down payment, so common with the LEAF, isn't something that Tesla does.

Perhaps that will change in a few years if they really try to make the Model E "affordable". But if the car really does hit the market with the projected range and cost, I would expect demand to exceed supply for some years, leaving little reason for Tesla to go to the trouble of setting up a leasing arm. I guess we'll know more in another three years or so.

GRA said:

evnow said:

GRA said:

I'm thinking of people living in Kansas City, Twin Cities, Detroit, Buffalo etc. and their suburbs, i.e. mainstream urban/suburban America. We have to get past the early adopter crowd in the next generation, if EVs are to prosper. And we need to do it before 2017, because who knows what will happen politically then.

Click to expand...

No we don't need to appeal to those people to get to 5% market share.

Click to expand...

I'm at a loss as to your reasoning on that. BEVs are sold almost exclusively in major metropolitan markets, because with their limited range and limited infrastructure, those are the places they make the most sense. Consider just the 59 Metropolitan areas with a population greater than 1 million:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_of_the_United_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most of them experience cold winters and/or hot summers. In order to get to 5%, BEVs will have to have enough range that a fair number of customers' will be comfortable with it being their _only_ car in their climate, as well as appealing to suburban owners with longer commutes who have multiple cars. Either is going to take a lot more range than they currently have.

While I think Anton Wahlman is going way overboard on any claims of 'proof' that Nissan will be introducing the car in the topic title, I do think, along with jlsoaz, that he has hit the nail on the head re what owners want for their next BEV.

Click to expand...

In some ways, I'd say the BEV that we have known for more than a decade could be made still hasn't been put widely on the market. I'm not sure why trying to discuss the importance (to many but not all) of a 100+ EPA mile range BEV under $45k or so still seems to run into strong criticism or derision even amongst our own teammate BEV advocates, but I guess it's just a matter of pressing on.

I have this sense of some unreality at seeing Nissan continuing to debate the matter. However, perhaps it's better to say that by being clear and laying out what we'd like to buy, we are perhaps playing a role in Nissan's deliberations and helping them come to a better understanding (however painfully long that seems to be taking), so maybe it's just a matter of our continuing to have staying power in being clear and laying out what we'd like to spend money on. I've lasted since GM's Impact announcement in the early 90s, so what's another few quarters?

This came out today, seems worth noting:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...kely-to-offer-larger-battery-for-longer-range

Nissan Leaf Likely To Offer Larger Battery For Longer Range
BY John Voelcker JOHN VOELCKER
3,019 views Apr 21, 2014

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....He called the idea of a longer-range Leaf the subject of "intense internal debate," with some parties feeling that the 2014 Leaf's rated range of 84 miles was enough for the vast majority of users--and others feeling that more U.S. buyers could be captured with a range in the triple digits.

In the end, Palmer suggested, there could be "two or even three" battery-pack options offered in future Leaf models--"varying by market" where the demand was strongest....

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Note that IMO the headline might be optimistic. I'm not sure if-when Nissan will get to the point of announcing a longer-range BEV.

Tesla does have a lease now for business customers. Somehow the $7500 TC doesn't get applied so it really isn't a good deal.

Mea culpa. I thought all cars could be leased, including Tesla. I am not going to think Tesla until they have a car I can afford, i.e. Model E and then worry about lease vs. purchase. Since the tech is about to hit Moore's Law warp speed I don't want to get stuck with another Leaf situation, even if the badge says Tesla. So for me for now any BEV is lease only.

While on the Tesla subject: I sat in Model S the other day. Did you know that a 6-footer cannot sit in the back seat w/o hitting the ceiling? Major disappointment. Elon totally blew this one.

ILETRIC said:

Mea culpa. I thought all cars could be leased, including Tesla. I am not going to think Tesla until they have a car I can afford, i.e. Model E and then worry about lease vs. purchase. Since the tech is about to hit Moore's Law warp speed I don't want to get stuck with another Leaf situation, even if the badge says Tesla. So for me for now any BEV is lease only.

While on the Tesla subject: I sat in Model S the other day. Did you know that a 6-footer cannot sit in the back seat w/o hitting the ceiling? Major disappointment. Elon totally blew this one.

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I'm 6' 2" and I fit in the Model S back seat just fine.

likely not until 2016 or even 2017.

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http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091583_nissan-leaf-likely-to-offer-larger-battery-for-longer-range" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That article has so much hyperbole in it, that I have a hard time taking any of it too seriously...

WetEV said:

likely not until 2016 or even 2017.

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http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091583_nissan-leaf-likely-to-offer-larger-battery-for-longer-range

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jelloslug said:

ILETRIC said:

While on the Tesla subject: I sat in Model S the other day. Did you know that a 6-footer cannot sit in the back seat w/o hitting the ceiling? Major disappointment. Elon totally blew this one.

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I'm 6' 2" and I fit in the Model S back seat just fine.

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I'm 6' and my head hits the roof unless I slouch. It's better with the panoramic sunroof, but still tight. Not sure why they just don't lower the seat a bit? The LEAF has more headroom than the Model S, but the LEAF pays for that with increased frontal area and worse aerodynamics.