Oil For Reduction Gear

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coolorangecat

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Messages
9
I ordered Red Line 58204 Heavy ShockProof Gear Oil. Will this oil be fine to use in the reduction gear on my 2012 Leaf?
 
if the oil is Matic S equivalent, then it is fine. I used Redline D6 myself. I am not sure if the 58204 is Nissan Matic S rated.

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=25076
 
As I understand it, most of the magic underlying the myriad of different ATF specs, has to do with friction modifiers. Since there's absolutely no shifting going on, I doubt if any of it matters for LEAF. That said, I know my doubts don't constitute facts and so I did choose the Redline D6 :)
 
I concur with the choice of Redline D6 ATF fluid ( https://www.redlineoil.com/d6-atf ). It's Pour Point is -76 deg F, which means they must be using moslty PAO with POE for their base oil, as other Nissan Matic S ATF fluids are typically about -60 deg F using mostly GroupIII base oil. PAO & POE are better for longevity, assuming the antioxidants are similar in formulas. What clues we have, Redline wins.

Also, Redline D6 is slightly more viscous, by about 10%, than most other Matic S ATF fluids available, which is probably better for wear. Also means a small loss of efficiency which most won't notice.

A downside is that Redline only says its for Nissan Matic S applications like ours. It doesn't officially hold that certification. Redline (Phillips 66) is a reputable company though. My Nissan Owner's Manual (2020 Leaf) has strong wording that we void the warranty if they find out we are using something that is not officially Matic S test approved and a problem occurs. Hmmm, it would be "safe" to simply use Nissan Matic S. Undecided here. I won't need it until a year or two from now anyway.
 
coolorangecat said:
I ordered Red Line 58204 Heavy ShockProof Gear Oil. Will this oil be fine to use in the reduction gear on my 2012 Leaf?
Even RedLine's "SuperLight" version of their racing ShockProof Gear Oil group has a kv100 twice that of a Nissan Matic S (Dexron VI). The SuperLight would work, with about a 2% or so loss in range though. Use the "Heavy" version and you'd get around a 5% loss in range, no kidding, very thick stuff. The other problem with using Racing gear oils is the longevity & corroson resistance, not something they cover in racing applications.

Redline D6 ATF is good for Nissan Matic S, true, yet there is another choice which may actually provide a slight increase in range due to EP esters: "LubeGard Complete Full Synthetic ATF" (Matic S, DexronVI), amazon and autoparts stores.

Looks to me like Nissan just says use Matic S due to political reasons. That gear reduction & differential package are simply gears, so any kind of ATF or gear oil would work, though you want the lowest visc one you can get away with and still have low wear rates, to max the EV's range.

Nissan-Leaf-2018-1280-5b.jpg

DSC03720.JPG
 
Nubo said:
As I understand it, most of the magic underlying the myriad of different ATF specs, has to do with friction modifiers. Since there's absolutely no shifting going on, I doubt if any of it matters for LEAF. That said, I know my doubts don't constitute facts and so I did choose the Redline D6 :)
That's right basically. The involute helical gears aren't very sensitive to what level of friction modifiers are in the ATF fluid, something conventional automatic transmissions need for their specific clutch materials & pressures. The gear faces do squirm a little when hit with forces, but it's small rubbing compared to things like piston rings, cam lobes, AT clutches, all we don't have of course.

Viscosity-induced teeth drag has the biggest effect on Leafs for us, not friction modification. I wouldn't use any ATF fluid or GL-4 gear oil with a KV100 viscosity greater than 7 cSt here. Nissan Matic-S made by Idemitsu, who likely is the OEM supplier for Nissan, has a KV100 = 5.5, quite low compared to many DexronVI-rated ATF fluids out there which are about 6.2 or so.

Redline D6 is good, but I'm picking Amsoil Fuel Efficient ATF (ATL code) with an all-PAO GroupIV oil base for longevity, and viscosity is low enough at 6.3 cSt. Also GM's "Dexron HP" (Mobil 1 makes it I think) is excellent too, good for 150,000 miles in their automatic transmissions, and used in Chevy Bolts to go around 200,000 miles or so, advanced tech inside.

As an aside, I notice "LEAF" should always be capitalized like it was some acronym. Does it mean "Low Emission Automotive Future"? Guessing. Some might say "low" should be "zero", but we all know the electrical grid ain't "zero".
 
Sure about any Dexron VI or Mercon LV class (rated) fluid, any brand, will work OK in a Leaf, yet there are a few ATF fluids that stand out.

Want more Anti-Wear (AW) additives built in to the ATF oil you use?

These fluids have around twice the usual amounts of phosphorus & boron chemicals in them:

1. Valvoline MaxLife Full Synthetic - It's a full syn (mostly GroupIII, but that's fine), great reputation, actually cheap, THE VALUE pick.

2. Amsoil Signature Series Fuel Efficient - The MOST phosphorus AW, all-PAO expensive full syn, what's not to like except the price?

3. Redline D6 - Not as much AW as #1 & #2 above, yet this is an expensive POE/ester fluid that still has a lot more AW than the Average Bear.

Viscosities of all three of the above are around 6 +/-0.3 cSt kv100 for comparison, near Nissan Matic S's kv100 around 5.5.

Also with a lot of extra AW, but the viscosity is a tad low: Valvoline ULV. Experimental because of it's extra low viscosity, but one user did an analysis and found it had a ton of AW phosphorus & boron in there. "Probably" OK to use. We're seeing a user on this forum try it out, hoping to get a cooler-running gearbox, which would, if found to be true, negate the lower viscosity issues. And maybe some range boost. Hard to tell if this an advantage yet.
 
So much ink has been spilled on this topic, yet nothing about use case.

I was thinking about our LEAF, which lives in a 4 season climate in the foothills, and rarely drives more than 20 miles at a time (perhaps 15k miles until car EOL.) I swapped the old oil with a walmart generic, but on reflection I would have chosen the Valvoline ULV for improved winter efficiency since I'm not concerned with wear.
 
SageBrush said:
......rarely drives more than 20 miles at a time
You can't go wrong no matter what you choose, especially with non-severe-service.

New fluids coming. It is about to get a little more confusing. To be fair, Eneos's (and other oil companies') upcoming EV oils have to cover possibilities like whether or not the gear reduction unit's oil cools the motor a lot (wet e-motor), or if it's isolated from the motor as the Leaf is.

............from their website covering the Pikes Peak Hill Cliimb in a Tesla Model 3: Eneos.us
ENEOS EV FLUID SERIES
ENEOS EV FLUID Gear Protection: A fluid to enhance the performance and increase the protection of reduction gears
ENEOS EV FLUID HV AT: A specialized fluid for automatic transmissions in electric/hybrid vehicles
ENEOS EV FLUID Motor Cool: A fluid with a balance of gear lubricity, motor cooling, and electrical insulation properties
ENEOS EV FLUID Energy Saving: A fluid to maximize the performance of motor cooling and energy-saving through very low friction
ENEOS EV FLUID Isolation: A fluid to maximize electrical insulation for safety
ENEOS EV FLUID Battery Cool: A specialized coolant for battery packs and electrical components

https://www.eneos.co.jp/english/newsrelease/2020/pdf/20200604_01.pdf
https://www.lubesngreases.com/electric-vehicles/article/ev-fluid-development-challenges/

At least having purpose built EV oil would keep me from wondering whether or not the anti-shudder positive slope of friction coefficient (Mu) with elastohydrodynamic regime sliding (V) speed (dMu/dV) in ATFs made for torque convertor clutch engagements would interfere with pure bearing & gear lubrication in a Leaf. I guess it won't affect our Leafs due to mostly rolling, not sliding, friction types in our cars.
Hyundai-Kia doesn't use ATF, instead they use a thin manual gearbox oil, avoiding the effects of increasing Mu with sliding speed.
 
If I go to the Nissan dealer to change the oil, will they use Matic S oil? Do you recommend me to change that oil at the dealership?

Thanks ! :D
 
Jpc said:
If I go to the Nissan dealer to change the oil, will they use Matic S oil? Do you recommend me to change that oil at the dealership?
It is a bit experimental to NOT use Nissan Matic S. That is the official position, and certainly safe.
Dealerships are supposed to use Nissan Matic S. Most do. I'll bet there are some that just use the cheapest DexronVI compatible stuff they can get.

That said, there are better choices in my opinion. You really can't get this wrong if you choose "Valvoline MaxLife Multi-Vehicle Automatic Transmission Fluid", a popular choice, because it has more phosphorus anti-wear additives than most easy-to-find ATF fluids off the shelf. Lasting the longest is the all-PAO "Amsoil Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid". Any other DexronVI or MerconLV compatible fluid is fine. This is just bearings and gears, no clutches, so no worries about being forced to use very specific brands or types like Matic S.

Dealerships can certainly change it for you. Not a bad idea to just let them do it if you're not into DIY.

Some of us are picky about making sure we use new crush washers for better sealing, cleaning off the magnetic drain plugs, and torquing the plugs perfectly. Otherwise, a technician in a hurry can toss some in there for a huge fee. All depends on if you have DIY experience changing oil, SAFELY jacking up (jackstands mandatory) or driving up ramps, etc. It's easy but requires some skill.
 
voltamps said:
Some of us are picky about making sure we use new crush washers for better sealing, cleaning off the magnetic drain plugs, and torquing the plugs perfectly. Otherwise, a technician in a hurry can toss some in there for a huge fee. All depends on if you have DIY experience changing oil, SAFELY jacking up (jackstands mandatory) or driving up ramps, etc. It's easy but requires some skill.
Picky does not describe me -- paranoid about a leak does. :lol:

I found the hardest part was loosening the drain and fill bolts. Those suckers are on tight. Best to have a breaker bar within reach.
 
Just about every EV out there today uses relatively thin ATF-style fluid, about 6 cSt (kv100). One exception: Mustang Mach E uses a very thin Mercon ULV (4.5 cSt) in the front unit. Kia-Hyundai uses 6 cSt GL-4 70W, essentially a manual tranny fluid. All thin.

Some earlier Tesla units used thick 75W-110 (with GL-4, not GL-5 levels of phosphorus anti-wear chemicals for hypoids) in the form of Mobil SHC 629 fluid, usually found in large industrial gearboxes and similar to Wind Turbine gearbox oil. WeberAuto on youtube revealed this, and others have uncovered this fact. Although, keep in mind this is in the front gearbox of a Model S, so it may vary what they use for different models & whether it's Plaid or not. Its not clear they always spec Mobil SHC 629 (75w-110 THICK at 21 cSt for comparison!!). Often it's Dexron VI 6 cSt.

Mobil SHC 629 isn't available in small quantities. A 5 gallon bucket can be had if you're so inclined. However, Nissan wants us to use something around 6 cSt in a Leaf, not the thick Tesla 21 cSt. ..... I recommend a GL-4 70W or 75W like Kia-Hyundai EVs use, which will have high levels of phosphorus anti-wear, more than in most ATF oils, The Ford Motorcraft Dual Clutch XT-11-QDC fluid https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/substitute-for-ford-xt-11-qdc-dual-clutch-fluid.282576/#post-4640793 has about the right amount of GL-4 anti-wear, about 6 cSt, and is partial-PAO for longevity.
I like the Redline MT-LV, which is all-PAO, really holds up, and is otherwise similar to the Ford XT-11-QDC syrup. Hyunda-Kia GL-4 70W ev fluid is good of course too.

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from WeberAuto on youtube
https://youtu.be/FVVT3FD30eY?t=1558
 
Jpc said:
If I go to the Nissan dealer to change the oil, will they use Matic S oil? Do you recommend me to change that oil at the dealership?
A Nissan dealer will only use oil spec'd for the car (Matic S). I know because I asked; that's why I went to an independent repair shop/garage (same one I did my battery pack swap with) so I could use Valvoline ULV (documented extensively here in another thread). I brought my own (couple quarts of) oil and the 2 new gaskets (purchased at a Nissan) dealer; the magnetic plugs can be cleaned and re-used.
So the answer to your question all depends on if you want use something different (I'm glad I did); it's not something that I would do myself, but it's also not something that a (reputable) shop would screw up.
 
I have a 2017 LEAF, and I am considering doing the first gearbox change (only has 40k on it) and read through the whole thread, and been trying to figure out if Lucas products or AMSOil products like the Lucas 80W 90 gearbox oil would work or if ATF would be the better option for the Matic-S thing we got, however neither seem to say if they are matic-S safe/compliant.

also are there any other things I should grab such as gaskets, seals, ect before doing the change? I don't want to start the process then need to go get something and be stuck with out my only vehicle (yes I daily my leaf) so any help would be appreciated, I read through the whole thread so far, and so far I suspect I need to get a few seals?
 
Jim74656 said:
I have a 2017 LEAF, and I am considering doing the first gearbox change (only has 40k on it) and read through the whole thread, and been trying to figure out if Lucas products or AMSOil products like the Lucas 80W 90 gearbox oil would work or if ATF would be the better option for the Matic-S thing we got, however neither seem to say if they are matic-S safe/compliant.

also are there any other things I should grab such as gaskets, seals, ect before doing the change? I don't want to start the process then need to go get something and be stuck with out my only vehicle (yes I daily my leaf) so any help would be appreciated, I read through the whole thread so far, and so far I suspect I need to get a few seals?
The post directly above yours (namely mine) spells out exactly what you need: 2 gaskets!
Similarly, the exact Valvoline oil I used was chemically tested (after use) and lauded for it's superior temperature performance in another (longer, more detailed) reduction gear thread.
 
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