How to put out a Lithium Battery Fire

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TonyWilliams

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
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Location
Vista, California USA
Training: How To Deal With Lithium Ion Batteries

Since October last year there have been 132 incidents involving battery overheats or fires aboard aircraft, according to the FAA. Until the recent series of Boeing 787 incidents, most fires occurred in cargo containers or personal electronic devices carried in the cabin. In November 2011, the FAA issued an AD on Cessna's then-new CJ4 to replace its lithium batteries due to overheating worries.

Firefighting techniques surrounding lithium ion-powered devices change much of what cockpit and cabin crews have come to understand about fire suppression. Water actually turns out to be useful in fighting lithium battery fires, according to Aviatas, a UK-based aviation training company. The key to extinguishing these fires is to cool the battery from the thermal runaway condition that causes it to overheat, hence the need for water.

In Aviatas’s free 11-minute lithium battery safety training course, the company says that if the cabin crew detects a fire, it should notify the flight-deck crew immediately. Next, attempt to remove power from the device, but never pick up the overheating device by hand. Crews should review how to isolate online charging stations from the rest of the ship’s power in an emergency. Aviatas cautions that even though tiny batteries carry only small amounts of lithium, they will spray molten lithium as they burn. Although ice is made of water, covering a burning laptop with ice actually risks an explosion. If water is not available, Halon is the next best extinguisher, followed by CO2 and wet foam, according to Aviatas.
 
What is useful about a post like this when the new 2013 Leafs are about to arrive at Nissan dealerships and many owners here are early adopters like myself (who has spent money he cannot truly afford) towards promoting alternative energy cars like the Leaf that safely use Lithium Ion batteries?

There is already a post entitled "Lithium ion batteries suspect in 787 fire" -- wouldn't that have been the appropriate place for your post?

Does anyone else agree with me about this?
 
According to the Energizer MSDS, it is stated:

"In case of fire where lithium ion batteries are present, flood the area with water. If any batteries are burning, water may not extinguish them, but will cool the adjacent batteries and control the spread of fire. CO2, dry chemical, and foam extinguishers are preferred for small fires, but also may not extinguish burning lithium ion batteries. Burning batteries will burn themselves out. Virtually all fires involving lithium ion batteries can be controlled with water. When water is used, however, hydrogen gas may be evolved which can form an explosive mixture with air. LITH-X (powdered graphite) or copper powder fire extinguishers, sand, dry ground dolomite or soda ash may also be used. These materials act as smothering agents."

So water is a blessing and a curse because, in the presence of LI, water will react with it to produce H2 which can explode. Furthermore, water reacts with LiPF6 (typical Li salt in the electrolyte) to produce HF, another bad chemical to be around. The best option, of course, is not to have Li-ion batteries that cause fires or other hazardous events, which then requires a well-engineered BMS or a safer battery chemistry.
 
MikeD said:
What is useful about a post like this when the new 2013 Leafs are about to arrive at Nissan dealerships and many owners here are early adopters like myself (who has spent money he cannot truly afford) towards promoting alternative energy cars like the Leaf that safely use Lithium Ion batteries?

There is already a post entitled "Lithium ion batteries suspect in 787 fire" -- wouldn't that have been the appropriate place for your post?

Does anyone else agree with me about this?

I personally don't operate the subterfuge method of promoting EV's, but I don't mind if you do. I've taken critism for telling people a LEAF doesn't go 100 miles in normal use, and that the Nissan batteries aren't doing so well in heat, and I'm sure plenty of others.

So, to answer your question, no I don't think safety issues that pertain to the LEAF belongs hidden in a thread about an airplane. The thrust of the post is how to safely put out a lithium fire, of which the LEAF has a 24kWh version right under your posterior.

As a consulation to early adopters, the chance of a new LEAF blowing up its battery is probably an order of magnitude less than gasoline burning cars blowing up their source of power (over 200,000 vehicle fires per year, virtually all of which are oil burners). Will you be worried about buying or driving a gasoline powered car if I tell you how to put out that fire?

And finally, the battery chemistry used in the LEAF (and Volt) is an order of magnitude safer than my Rav4 EV or any Tesla. Go checkout how many Fisker Karmas burnt to the ground when flooded in New Jersey. Normal oil burning cars don't ignite when water is introduced, but electric ones can!!!
 
+1!

TonyWilliams said:
I personally don't operate the subterfuge method of promoting EV's, but I don't mind if you do. I've taken critism for telling people a LEAF doesn't go 100 miles in normal use, and that the Nissan batteries aren't doing so well in heat, and I'm sure plenty of others.
 
TomT said:
+1!

TonyWilliams said:
I personally don't operate the subterfuge method of promoting EV's, but I don't mind if you do. I've taken critism for telling people a LEAF doesn't go 100 miles in normal use, and that the Nissan batteries aren't doing so well in heat, and I'm sure plenty of others.

+1 and I want to know how many of those 200k fires are started from the lead acid battery or even just the electrical systems not involving gasoline.
 
QueenBee said:
TomT said:
+1!

TonyWilliams said:
I personally don't operate the subterfuge method of promoting EV's, but I don't mind if you do. I've taken critism for telling people a LEAF doesn't go 100 miles in normal use, and that the Nissan batteries aren't doing so well in heat, and I'm sure plenty of others.

+1 and I want to know how many of those 200k fires are started from the lead acid battery or even just the electrical systems not involving gasoline.

I want to know how you're connecting the 12 volt lead acid or electrical system with a lithium fire? It actually makes my point; 12 volts batteries are not causing lithium batteries to self destruct any more than they are causing oil and gasoline to to bang

(well, actually quite a few planes have been lost to electrical fires, but I can only think of a few, like TWA800, that the electrical caught the fuel on fire)
 
TonyWilliams said:
I want to know how you're connecting the 12 volt lead acid or electrical system with a lithium fire? It actually makes my point; 12 volts batteries are not causing lithium batteries to self destruct any more than they are causing oil and gasoline to to bang

(well, actually quite a few planes have been lost to electrical fires, but I can only think of a few, like TWA800, that the electrical caught the fuel on fire)

No connection other than cars with lithium ion batteries have 12 volt batteries and electrical systems just like ICE. I'm curious because say for example if there are 2 electrical/lead acid fires per 100,000 cars that would mean we ought to be seeing 1 LEAF a year catch on fire for reasons other than the main battery pack.
 
QueenBee said:
I'm curious because say for example if there are 2 electrical/lead acid fires per 100,000 cars that would mean we ought to be seeing 1 LEAF a year catch on fire for reasons other than the main battery pack.

If you think LEAFs wont catch on fire because of all the above, I think you're mistaken. Neither Boeing nor Fisker wanted expected battery fires, well, at least not this many!!!
 
TonyWilliams said:
QueenBee said:
I'm curious because say for example if there are 2 electrical/lead acid fires per 100,000 cars that would mean we ought to be seeing 1 LEAF a year catch on fire for reasons other than the main battery pack.

If you think LEAFs wont catch on fire because of all the above, I think you're mistaken. Neither Boeing nor Fisker wanted expected battery fires, well, at least not this many!!!

No no, I'm saying the LEAF will catch on fire at least as much as ICE cars that are catching on fire because of electrical issues or 12 volt battery fires. The question I have is how common that is.
 
A Lithium ion COBALT battery is MUCH different than a
Lithium ion IRON PHOSPHATE battery. However they are
both called "Lithium ion battery" by the press.

A Lithium Cobalt cell can/will catch fire when overheated,
or overcharged, and is a real fire danger. These are
"cooling system required" cells, when used in high current
applications.

The Lithium Polymer cells have a similar thermal
runaway characteristic, I believe.

In contrast, it is apparently almost impossible to get
the LiFePO4 cell to burn, much less explode.

I suspect that the LEAF's battery pack is more like
the Lithium Iron Phosphate battery, but I have
not seen data on trying to get it to burn.
 
garygid said:
I suspect that the LEAF's battery pack is more like
the Lithium Iron Phosphate battery, but I have
not seen data on trying to get it to burn.
Thank you, Gary and Kim. Here is what I posted a few days ago elsewhere. TomT posted another and more recent source in another thread, and I lifted the video interview from it.

troubleshootmnl


Click to open (source: Electropedia)


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnZIUXbhsTA[/youtube]

U-M Chemical Engineering Professor Levi Thompson explains how overheating of Lithium Ion batteries could cause leaking of fluids, which may lead to ignition.
 
MikeD said:
What is useful about a post like this when the new 2013 Leafs are about to arrive at Nissan dealerships and many owners here are early adopters like myself (who has spent money he cannot truly afford) towards promoting alternative energy cars like the Leaf that safely use Lithium Ion batteries?

There is already a post entitled "Lithium ion batteries suspect in 787 fire" -- wouldn't that have been the appropriate place for your post?

Does anyone else agree with me about this?
I completely disagree.

I don't care about your "alternate energy car" agenda. I want to know as much as possible about my car. I want to know that the batteries aren't happy in hot weather. I want to know that sales are slow. And yes, I want to know what I should do if my car - heaven forbid - were to ever catch on fire.

It's nice to know that not only is water safe to use on such a fire, but is also the preferred method to control it.
 
surfingslovak said:
Thank you, Gary and Kim. Here is what I posted a few days ago elsewhere. TomT posted another and more recent source in another thread, and I lifted the video interview from it.

Thanks George for the info. The data and discussion on Li-ion battery safety has been around as long as the battery itself, and before. Because of the interest in high energy batteries, alkali metals such as Li (e.g., Li metal, Li-ion) Li/air, etc.) and Na (e.g., Na/s batteries) have received a lot of attention as negative electrodes. With regard to thermal stability of Li-ion batteries, companies, national labs. and universities have undertaken extensive measurements involving differential scanning calorimetry (DTA), accelerated rate calorimetry (ARC), oven tests, drop tests, nail penetration, pressure, expansion, etc. These tests are on-going as the search for new electrode materials, electrolytes, current collectors and separators continue.

Just for reference, here is a link to a report from 2007 that describes some work on "Burning Batteries"
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/science/85/8551sci1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
garsh said:
It's nice to know that not only is water safe to use on such a fire, but is also the preferred method to control it.
Yes, Thank you Tony. I use Li cells in model aircraft and did not know water was the preferred extinguisher.
 
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