What I want in a Leaf 3.0

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WetEV

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
5,147
Location
Near Seattle, WA
There are good reasons to suspect that a 60kWh Leaf is due out in 2019. So for current owners of a Leaf please, what things do YOU need to see to make you buy a new Leaf?

My needs:

1) A secure way of knowing remaining battery capacity including history that is easy to access.
Secure, meaning can't be reset by a used car dealer or anyone else. A history makes events like a new battery install transparent to the potential buyer of a car. Must be accessible from the center console without special tools or software at minimum.

If I want to buy or sell an electric car, I need to know what the best estimate of the battery capacity is. Sure, I know that all measurements are not exact, so having either a stated accuracy (56 kWh plus or minus 2 kWh) or a minimum estimate (54 kWh, maybe more, but not less) is acceptable.

If I'm buying a car, I need to know what I'm buying. If I'm selling a car, I'll get a better price if the buyer can trust what I'm selling. A large fraction of the value of a EV is the battery pack condition. (23% of a new Bolt?)


2) Hilltop charge mode. Charge to 80% Or 85% Or even 90%. Or even better, give me multiple steps.

I want regeneration when I leave home. i live at the top of a hill.
On the rare days that I push range I'd like to charge to full. Make it easy to over-ride.


3) More leg room.
The center console intrudes into where my right leg would like to be. Please make it narrower.


4) A real battery temperature readout in degrees C and F. Sure, the TMS should be taking most of the temperature worries away. I'd like to know the actual battery temperature when driving up and down steep mountain roads, on long trips with multiple DCQC sessions, etc.

Ideally this should be a driver display, but I'd accept a center console screen with this and other "engineering details".


My wants:

1) 19.2kW L2 charging. Or close to it. Most useful out in the wilds beyond DCQC. If I stop in a campground and get a 50 Amp plug, I'd like to use the 40 Amps that I can draw steady state from this plug. When I stop at an 80 Amp J1772, I'd like to draw 80 Amps.

2) Socialize the car. Provide a way to record trips similar to LEAFspy. And a way to display somewhat like http://www.leaflogger.com/

Perhaps just a bluetooth to cellphone link with an open API for third parties to write cellphone apps. Or perhaps using the car's cellphone link. Or even something else. Technology matters less than ease of use.

I like the ability to show someone my trips, where, when, battery charge level, outside temperature, battery temperature, ... Think of it as a social link to the car, making the car worth more to the owner, and more attractive to non-owners. Allow me to automatically fuzz out exactly where my home is, and other points where the trips start and/or end, for security and safety.
 
1. I agree, that would be nice, the car knows it, just let the average(or technical) person have access to displaying it :)
2. Agree, or just make it like Tesla has, where you can specify any SOC you want to stop at :idea:
3. While I agree and detest vehicles with a large console(looking at you Bolt and Volt :x ) I've not really had a problem with my older Leafs. In fact leg room was one of the selling points compared to other vehicles I looked at, still I wouldn't mind more, my favorite is something like a Nissan NV-200, I'd love to get the NV-200e here, and with a large battery pack :)
4. It would be nice, still if you have LeafSpy that does give you not only one temp but several temps of the battery, but it would be nice to have that built in.
5. Totally agree on this, I have a 50(40a cont) circuit at home but am limited to 27.5a with my current Leaf :( Adding to this, I'd also like the option to charge with a 3-phase 277/480v source used in commercial buildings, again like the stopping at a particular SOC% I believe only Tesla offers 277v charging.

Of your list my biggest want would be faster L2 charging, stopping at a particular SOC would be nice too although since both my Leafs allow me to stop at 80% I've been OK with that and haven't had to live without that feature like newer Leaf buyers.
I'd also not want the leg room to be any less, more better but any less and I'd be looking at a different vehicle.
 
To borrow from James Carville,
It's the battery, stupid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_the_economy,_stupid

lest I offend anyone, this is directed towards Nissan :)
 
I'm not in the market for a new car since my 2017 Leaf should do everything I need it to indefinately. BUT, one thing I wish Nissan would offer is to make the heat-pump heating system an option for any trim level. I have an 2017 S and on the few days I need to use the cabin heat, I just cringe to think of how silly it is to use that much energy to just heat the cabin when a heat pump could do the same job with much less consumption.
 
I would never buy a new EV from Nissan based on their corporate history and the LEAF but for EVs in general I start with this:

Will the battery retain at least 80%, preferably 90% of new capacity for 10 years ? If no, then everything else is besides the point.
 
SageBrush said:
I would never buy a new EV from Nissan based on their corporate history and the LEAF but for EVs in general I start with this:

Will the battery retain at least 80%, preferably 90% of new capacity for 10 years ? If no, then everything else is besides the point.

If this was true in Phoenix AZ, I could expect 80% in 40 years. Assuming that both the car and I live that long, of course. And I'm still able to drive. :lol:
 
SageBrush said:
...

Will the battery retain at least 80%, preferably 90% of new capacity for 10 years ? If no, then everything else is besides the point.

I agree. This is my main question. Having the battery not degrade is more important to me than longer range. Other things:

  • Automatic braking
    Lights on more buttons so you can see them at night. Door locks!
    Ability to set the % to stop the charge at
    An app that works reliably
    Faster Level 2 charging would be great
 
A better non-degrading battery. One that lasts at least 10 years or 100,000 miles, if not double that. The battery should not need to be replaced more than once in the lifetime of the car. Older cars needed a new engine about every 100,000 miles, so for now that's all I can expect from the battery since it is also a new technology. I don't care if it has a thermal management system or not, just as long as the battery lasts. Either that or guarantee the battery for 20 years or 200,000 miles, for the lifetime of the car. An 8 or 10 year guarantee is worthless if after that the car is in good shape but now whoever has the car has to deal with a bad battery.

And by "degrading" I mean to 70% of original capacity. I personally don't expect a battery to keep 100% for several decades to come, although that would be nice. But with that, give the car some real range. It looks like States like here in Colorado are shooting for 70 miles or less between charging stations. The car needs to go more than twice that even with a degraded battery so that it can make it in poor weather or do a bit of sight seeing. So give it at least a 200 mile range at the beginning. Either that or don't let the battery degrade below 140 miles ever, even if that means keeping the battery health up to 80% or 90% or even 100% for those 10 or more years.

And give us more battery options. For those that want just a 140 mile minimum, give them that. For those that want a 210 minimum after 10 years of degradation, give them that. Maybe even an "S" option with less than the 140 mile minimum for those frugal minded.

And give it the ability to charge to whatever level the owner wants, 70%, 80%, 90%, etc.

And make it more aerodynamic. Personally I don't care if the car looks weird. Just make that CR lower.

Also give us a solar option for charging the traction battery. I don't care if I only get 500W. That's better than the 1/2W the little 12V solar panel does.
 
Also give us a solar option for charging the traction battery. I don't care if I only get 500W. That's better than the 1/2W the little 12V solar panel does.[/quote said:
A solar option would have negligible value and a poor cost/benefit ratio. Charging at 500W would be like 100W to the battery if you were lucky. On a bright sunny day your would get a couple miles after overhead, sun factor, conversion waste, etc. Anyone that wants a batter that does not degrade should consider a Tesla, there are many with 100K miles and little degradation.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Anyone that wants a batter that does not degrade should consider a Tesla, there are many with 100K miles and little degradation.

Yes, just as there are many Leafs with 25K miles and little degradation. The Tesla battery is 4 times the size. The same number of battery cycles will take a $100,000 T esla M odle S more miles than a $25k Leaf. After tax credits, of course. Yes, the T esla S also is a faster, larger car, and has other things you might or might not want. Like high repair costs. Yes, the Leaf is a better deal in cool places where 90k miles before the first bar loss has been observed than in hot places with faster loss. The M odel 3 and Leaf 2.0 are unknown until we have a year or two to see how they are doing.

Maybe the right metric might be cost per mile, rather than just miles. Unless 0-60 time is your key goal.

I'd like a lower cost per mile. I don't care if this means a battery that needs to be replaced every 60k miles or 600k miles. I'm not interested in driving across the USA.
 
goldbrick said:
I'm not in the market for a new car since my 2017 Leaf should do everything I need it to indefinately. BUT, one thing I wish Nissan would offer is to make the heat-pump heating system an option for any trim level. I have an 2017 S and on the few days I need to use the cabin heat, I just cringe to think of how silly it is to use that much energy to just heat the cabin when a heat pump could do the same job with much less consumption.

Waste of money! I opt for a heated 5 point harness. Seat heaters work fine but they tend to be one sided. :)
 
WetEV said:
EVDRIVER said:
Anyone that wants a batter that does not degrade should consider a Tesla, there are many with 100K miles and little degradation.

Yes, just as there are many Leafs with 25K miles and little degradation. The Tesla battery is 4 times the size. The same number of battery cycles will take a $100,000 T esla M odle S more miles than a $25k Leaf. After tax credits, of course. Yes, the T esla S also is a faster, larger car, and has other things you might or might not want. Like high repair costs. Yes, the Leaf is a better deal in cool places where 90k miles before the first bar loss has been observed than in hot places with faster loss. The M odel 3 and Leaf 2.0 are unknown until we have a year or two to see how they are doing.

Maybe the right metric might be cost per mile, rather than just miles. Unless 0-60 time is your key goal.

I'd like a lower cost per mile. I don't care if this means a battery that needs to be replaced every 60k miles or 600k miles. I'm not interested in driving across the USA.

My comment is about degradation, a LEAF can have the same pack cooling as a Tesla, or other lower priced EV. The car does not have to have a price of $100k or a 0-60 time that is faster. A model 3 should do even better. Teslas in hot regions with high miles do not have issues like the LEAF. There are LEAFs with low miles with issues and vice versa as we know. Take the two cars in a warm climate and after 5 years look at a Tesla with 50K miles and LEAF with 20K miles, the LEAF will have degradation. It's not so much about cycles but heat and time as well. Put a 30Kwh pack in a Tesla and do the same miles as the 30kwh pack and you will see more degradation on the LEAF by a long shot in most cases. If Nissan was not trying to recoup their NRE and pack mistakes they would not have had a class action suit and they would likely be FAR ahead in sales. Unfortunately they are beating that horse and if they beat it into 2019 they are going to be in trouble unless they keep subsidizing cars with big incentives. It's been almost 11 years now and they move too slow on everything considering it's the same model car they are making on the same platform.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
goldbrick said:
I'm not in the market for a new car since my 2017 Leaf should do everything I need it to indefinately. BUT, one thing I wish Nissan would offer is to make the heat-pump heating system an option for any trim level. I have an 2017 S and on the few days I need to use the cabin heat, I just cringe to think of how silly it is to use that much energy to just heat the cabin when a heat pump could do the same job with much less consumption.

Waste of money! I opt for a heated 5 point harness. Seat heaters work fine but they tend to be one sided. :)

Agreed, mostly. I have no regrets getting an S since here in CO the winters tend to be sunny enough that defrost is not a problem. The heated seats work great for the times when it's cold but, there are still days I have used the heat and I just cringe thinking of how inefficient it is. I know it's a drop in the bucket relatively speaking and I love the AC. If I could have a heat pump added to my S for $1000 it would be a no-brainer for me. I don't know how much of the cost increase to the higher trim with the heat pump is for the heat pump itself so maybe I'm asking for too much. If the heat pump additional cost is $3k then yes, waste of money, but if it's $500, bring it on.
 
goldbrick said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
goldbrick said:
I'm not in the market for a new car since my 2017 Leaf should do everything I need it to indefinately. BUT, one thing I wish Nissan would offer is to make the heat-pump heating system an option for any trim level. I have an 2017 S and on the few days I need to use the cabin heat, I just cringe to think of how silly it is to use that much energy to just heat the cabin when a heat pump could do the same job with much less consumption.

Waste of money! I opt for a heated 5 point harness. Seat heaters work fine but they tend to be one sided. :)

Agreed, mostly. I have no regrets getting an S since here in CO the winters tend to be sunny enough that defrost is not a problem. The heated seats work great for the times when it's cold but, there are still days I have used the heat and I just cringe thinking of how inefficient it is. I know it's a drop in the bucket relatively speaking and I love the AC. If I could have a heat pump added to my S for $1000 it would be a no-brainer for me. I don't know how much of the cost increase to the higher trim with the heat pump is for the heat pump itself so maybe I'm asking for too much. If the heat pump additional cost is $3k then yes, waste of money, but if it's $500, bring it on.


Well, its an SV thing so a few thousand more. Its $450 for an S but no hybrid. Considering how few times I use heat, it would be a nearly complete waste of money. Besides the extra range makes wasting a few electrons painless. ;)
 
EVDRIVER said:
WetEV said:
I'd like a lower cost per mile. I don't care if this means a battery that needs to be replaced every 60k miles or 600k miles. I'm not interested in driving across the USA.

My comment is about degradation, a LEAF can have the same pack cooling as a Tesla, or other lower priced EV. The car does not have to have a price of $100k or a 0-60 time that is faster.

Sure, a $100k T esla's battery will outlast a $30k Leaf's battery.

But will the T esla's battery outlast the same $100k spend one a Leaf car and 30+ replacement battery packs? :lol:

Not to mention the extra electric power cost, extra repair cost and such for the T esla.
 
WetEV said:
EVDRIVER said:
WetEV said:
I'd like a lower cost per mile. I don't care if this means a battery that needs to be replaced every 60k miles or 600k miles. I'm not interested in driving across the USA.

My comment is about degradation, a LEAF can have the same pack cooling as a Tesla, or other lower priced EV. The car does not have to have a price of $100k or a 0-60 time that is faster.

Sure, a $100k T esla's battery will outlast a $30k Leaf's battery.

But will the T esla's battery outlast the same $100k spend one a Leaf car and 30+ replacement battery packs? :lol:

Not to mention the extra electric power cost, extra repair cost and such for the T esla.

The cost of the car has nothing to do with the pack longevity the size, cooling and chemistry does. You can cool the LEAF pack and it will last longer and it won't require buying a $100K car. The Model 3 uses the same pack tech and it is not $100K, etc, etc.
 
EVDRIVER said:
The cost of the car has nothing to do with the pack longevity the size, cooling and chemistry does. You can cool the LEAF pack and it will last longer and it won't require buying a $100K car. The Model 3 uses the same pack tech and it is not $100K, etc, etc.

I don't directly care about pack longevity, as long as changing a battery isn't that big of a deal. I do care about cost per mile. I shouldn't need to pay for a Leaf battery before 100k miles/8 years. At the rate that the technology is advancing, an 8 year old BEV isn't quite as exciting as it was at first.

Cost per mile. T esla is behind on this, and I'd hope that Leaf 3.0 continue to lead with this.
 
According to the guy in this video a base Tesla Model 3 will cost around $28,244 without the Federal Tax Credit and $20,744 with it, not including tax, insurance or financing. By the same categories, a Leaf is about the same price in the end. Here's a breakdown, but note that my numbers are a bit different than Edmunds. Since the YouTube guy was going by Tesla's base price of $35,000 I adjusted the price for the Leaf from Edmunds figure of 33,990 to 29,990. I also changed the Leaf's electric costs since it was only $2,902 but since the Leaf gets 112 mpg-e and the Tesla gets 126 mpg-e I figured it should be calculated the same way for comparison. Of course there's no way of figuring everyone's individual electric rate plus potential public charging costs. For maintenance the Tesla number does include the cost of the home charging station, but I'm not sure if that's included in Edmunds figures on the Leaf. So the Leaf may cost more if you include an installation of a home charging station. Of course there are also repair costs, so don't ever break down!

5 Year total cost to own:
2018 Tesla M3 / 2018 Nissan Leaf S
Initial cost: $35,000 / $29,990
Electricity: $3,767 / $4,238
Maintenance: $4,525 / $3,244
Sum paid in 5 years: $42,292 / $37,472

Resale value: 43% $15,048 / 30% $8,997
Total cost: $28,244 / $28,475

Including federal tax credit of $7,500:
Total cost: $20,744 / $20,975

As you can see, the killer on the Leaf is the resell value. And this is where I say where the battery longevity comes into play. Yes, Nissan has kept a lower selling price by using a cheaper battery. If they put a Tesla battery in a Leaf the Leaf wouldn't cost $29,990 up front. But that and the lower range of the Leaf has and will keep making it have a terrible resell value.

Let me put it this way. Say they guarantee the battery for 10 years or 100,000 miles. After that's up whoever owns the Leaf will now be faced with a battery that degrades quickly. Now he either has to drive shorter distances or purchase a battery every so often. He's not going to pay a lot for a used Leaf knowing that it's in this condition or nearing this condition.

The alternative is to just keep the car. If you never have to replace the battery in the Leaf it becomes much more cheaper than the Tesla. As you can see, in 5 years the operating costs of the Leaf were about $5,000 cheaper. That's $1,000 per year! After that it will be up to the price of maintenance and repair parts to determine the operating cost, which I would guess the Nissan would be cheaper EXCEPT for the battery. See now, if you keep the car for 200,000 miles, then for the last 100,000 miles you either have to live with a degrading battery or pay thousands of dollars every so often for a new battery. If you pay $5,000 for the battery and it lasts 5 years then that's $1,000 per year more to own and operate the Leaf. Of course the cheapest would be to just keep driving it on it's degraded battery. But how degraded will it be after more than 100,000 miles?

It looks like the main problem here is the heat. I have over 50,000 miles on my Leaf and just lost the first bar not too long ago. And since the Leaf is in cooler weather now than with the previous owner my battery should last even longer, maybe even reaching 200,000 miles before losing the 8th bar. If Nissan simply incorporated some sort of battery cooling that might just do the trick for everyone. If that adds $1,000 to the sticker price but makes the battery last at least 100,000 miles or 10 years and brings the resell value up to 40% the Leaf would be even more economical in the long run. Yes, you might have to pay $6,000 for a battery some time in the future for another 10 years of service. But that's cheaper than $5,000 every 3 to 5 years.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR_ub5eL9n0[/youtube]

Edmunds:

https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2018/st-401734188/cost-to-own/
 
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