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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 1284
Location: Southeast Michigan
Leaf Number: 19628
I'm an imminent LEAF owner, and my dads opinion on the car is the only thing causing me to give it a second thought from a range perspective. "I think it's a mistake, big inconvenience running around looking for a plug, you're not gonna like it." He also doesn't like the looks. "Ugly, bulgy headlights...". It almost feels like I'm in a different era, where my dad is some racist and I'm about to marry a girl that I'm in love with, but is of a different skin color. While there's not a hint of racism in my dad, I think he is prejudice against electric cars.

So I want to keep an open mind. I don't want to make a "mistake" and be seduced by this evil, "ugly" LEAF that I will "not like". It all boils down to the issue of range anxiety for him. So I need some insight from LEAF owners in cold weather states. This is a rough estimate of my EV-friendly commute (flat terrain).

1) .2 miles 25MPH subdivision
2) 4 miles 45-55MPH rural (2 stop lights)
3) 3 miles 25-35MPH city (2 stop lights)
4) 13 miles 55MPH highway (5 stop lights)
5) 6 mile 40MPH city (6 stop lights)
6) .3 miles 15MPH parking lot

Both ways totals 53 miles.

Assume I don't have an opportunity to charge at work. Also assume it's below freezing, maybe there's even some snow on the roads. Assume I'm cold and want to use all heating options available (heater, steering wheel, seats). Would you feel this route is do-able at 100% charge? 80% charge?

What if I added 3 miles of 40MPH driving for lunch-time errands (56 miles)?
Maybe I want to visit my friend on my way home from work and add 4 miles to that (60 miles)?

_________________
2012 Nissan LEAF SV
Cayenne Red
June 2014: 56.70AHr, 86% SOH, 30,000 miles
July 2014: 56.36AHr, 85% SOH, 30,800 miles
August 2014: 55.59AHr, 84% SOH, 31,400 miles
September 2014: 55.43AHr, 84% SOH, 32,300 miles
Oil sober since May 17, 2012


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:11 pm
Posts: 355
Location: Van Nuys, CA
Delivery Date: 16 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 5123
I can't help you much with cold weather opinions as I hail from sunny Southern California, but I did want to let you know that I had the same back and forth with my mom before I bought my Leaf. Once I got the car and proved that it works for me it ultimately kept her quiet and I'm glad I went through with it instead of wimping out and getting a Volt.

Oh, and running around looking for a plug has proven to be great fun and adventure for my girlfriend and I. It's taken us places we wouldn't otherwise have visited and we enjoy the "sport" of plug-hunting.

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30,140mi & 54.11 AHr as of 2014FEB27


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Posts: 9762
Location: Olympia, WA
Delivery Date: 20 Dec 2013
Leaf Number: 423014
as long as you dont jackrabbit them lights, you should be fine. in severely cold winters, it will be close and all depends on how much heat you want but summer time you will have smooth sailing.



best advice i can give you; wear a coat

_________________
44,598 miles on 2011 LEAF (retired) 2013 LEAF;14,388 miles. Ah; 64.24-66.39, Hx; 97.11-102.35% kwh 22.0 @70% estimate; 127,105 miles
Sep 2014 Drive Stats. Corolla;213 miles, $19.20, LEAF;2032 miles $44.78
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:14 am
Posts: 3540
Location: Coastal LA
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
i dont see a problem. i do a 51-mile commute every day on 80-% charge and get home with GOM saying 20 or two bars.
ore-heating should solve some of the issue. I am guessing that a 53-mile trip, even where it is cold cannot be done in winter.
the unknown factor is slushy or snowy roads that require more juice to get through the muck.
Of course, we dont get very cold in southern california.
there must be a way to borrow a demo or rent one, if you dont like our speculation.
but good luck and go ahead. what is the worst thing that can happen?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:54 am
Posts: 1363
If it's your only car then your dad is right. Even assuming you can make the 55 mile round trip OK in cold weather, what happens when you have to make some side trips? Life is not simple. You have doctor appointments and lunch meetings and meetings with friends after work. Or maybe you just want to go to a ballgame. Given the range of the car, your commute doesn't leave any margin for these types of things.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:49 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Posts: 8868
Location: 100 Mile Club San Diego
Leaf Number: 00000
1. How will the car start each morning? In a heated, enclosed garage? Enclosed unheated garage that is significantly warmer than ambient? I'm sure you know that you should preheat the interior with the car's timer, your LEAF app on your smart-ish phone, or CarWings through the internet (there's actually a text message service now that I like; just type "AC on" and hit send).

In the summer, absolutely, this is easy as pie. In the cold, i would absolutely charge to 100%. If you're pushing snow and the car is starting cold/cold (that means cold battery and cold climate control), you'll probably make it, but with quite limited reserve. Any detour might make for a cold walk home.

So, let's hit this with a worst case scenario. It's -20C/-4F in the upper P, and the snow is dropping hard. Traffic is jammed up because of cars stuck in the snow and crashes. You have to detour around some of it, adding numerous miles. The car was fully charged sitting outside, but you forgot to turn on the heater. Don't worry about that battery freezing, though, 'cuz that 300watt battery heater is warming it up to -10C/14F. At least you don't have a Blink EVSE, so there's a good chance that as long as power was available, the car was fully charged.

1) .2 miles 25MPH subdivision
2) 4 miles 45-55MPH rural (2 stop lights)
3) 3 miles 25-35MPH city (2 stop lights)
All combined to 14.4 miles at 4.0 miles/kWh for my example, which might be too optimistic in significant snow.

4) 13 miles 55MPH highway (5 stop lights)
Ok, let's guess 3.5 m/kWh while pushing snow for 26 miles

5) 6 mile 40MPH city (6 stop lights)
6) .3 miles 15MPH parking lot (Both ways totals 53 miles)
7) 3 miles of 40MPH driving for lunch-time errands (56 miles)
8) 4 miles to that (60 miles)
I'll give you 4.0m/kWh for this 26.6 miles

To be honest, temperature is relatively easy to factor (just turn the heater off, viola, end of wondering how much, plus battery capacity seems to be somewhat linear with temp). But, snow? If you snow ski, you know how much that can vary with snow conditions.

40 miles @ 4m/kWh
26 miles @ 3.5m/kWh

66 miles total round trip at 3.7m/kWh equals 17.83 kWh burned with ZERO heater factored. So, how much battery is there? 70F minus 14F (the warmest the battery was warmed to while plugged in) is a 56 degree delta, divided by 4F, equals a minimum 14% reduction in battery capacity below 21kWh, or 18kWh.

Did you make it? That's not factoring in the heater, or the detour. Might want to skip those side trips! I wouldn't take my family out on a trip like this (with no reserve, no contingency plans, and really cold, bad weather), but I'd probably do it myself.

Edit: At 20F in southeast MI, assuming the battery is near that temp, you'll have a bit more battery capacity, like maybe 2% over 14F.

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All EV Rally, BC2BC, Mexico 2 Canada, Aug 10, 2014
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Last edited by TonyWilliams on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Posts: 9762
Location: Olympia, WA
Delivery Date: 20 Dec 2013
Leaf Number: 423014
nice write up Tony but he lives in SE MI which means no -20. gets to zero occasionally but i would work with a low end average of 25

_________________
44,598 miles on 2011 LEAF (retired) 2013 LEAF;14,388 miles. Ah; 64.24-66.39, Hx; 97.11-102.35% kwh 22.0 @70% estimate; 127,105 miles
Sep 2014 Drive Stats. Corolla;213 miles, $19.20, LEAF;2032 miles $44.78
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 1284
Location: Southeast Michigan
Leaf Number: 19628
Our average low in January (our coldest month) is around 15F. It will occasionally dip below that, but very cold conditions typically only occur in high pressure and low humidity, so it rarely snows when it's extremely cold (kind of opposite of what most warm-climate folks think). So I guess we can consider that a blessing that extreme cold and extreme snow don't usually happen together.

I'll have a gas car for longer trips or cases when I expect more than an inch or two of snow, or extreme low temperatures. But I'm hoping to keep it parked most of the year if possible.

I also have the benefit of working a shift that lets me avoid rush hour traffic (my commute time is between 10AM-11AM, and 8PM-9PM), so traffic jams rarely occur, and snow that has accumulated overnight is typically cleared from main roads by that time.

So it looks like it all boils down to whether or not I can convince management to allow me to plug in at work. 8 hours of 120V should give me close to 40 miles, correct?

I think what I need is a demo car. Will they loan them out for a couple days?

_________________
2012 Nissan LEAF SV
Cayenne Red
June 2014: 56.70AHr, 86% SOH, 30,000 miles
July 2014: 56.36AHr, 85% SOH, 30,800 miles
August 2014: 55.59AHr, 84% SOH, 31,400 miles
September 2014: 55.43AHr, 84% SOH, 32,300 miles
Oil sober since May 17, 2012


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Posts: 8868
Location: 100 Mile Club San Diego
Leaf Number: 00000
Maybe a dealer demo, but Hertz and Enterprise also have the LEAF is some locations. Obviously, you're in fat city with 8 hours of 120v at work. You'll be able to preheat the cabin on "shore power", and be the envy of all you oil burning coworkers as they hop in their freezing cold CO2 belchers.

_________________
EVRAV4, was PLGS IN (#2244), & PLGIN2 (#20782)

Range Chart
All EV Rally, BC2BC, Mexico 2 Canada, Aug 10, 2014
100 Mile Club + Longest Drive
Next San Diego EVent
Battery Degradation Summary


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:11 pm
Posts: 7
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2012
Leaf Number: 6980
I can not tell you about snow but i can give you one example of similar temp and range. Here in Charlotte Nc it does not often get that cold but i have had one morning that it was 15. It was about 3 weeks after i got the car so i was still playing. I use the end only timer to try and retain some of the heat from charging. This trip was 40 miles to work and i had the cc set to 82 the whole time arrived with 19 miles left.


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