golfcart
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:01 am

SageBrush wrote:
golfcart wrote:You were specifically talking about "long trips" (not commuting) in the part I responded to.

If so, then irrelevant to the Oak Ridge or AAA results.

You cannot have it both ways. Either we are talking about short trips and then the refueling time is trivial for EV owners with convenient L2 charging; or you are talking about long distance driving and then the SINGLE cold soak penalty is diluted.

Which brings us back to why the AAA study is FUD:
Efficiency of short trips does not extrapolate to long trips;
EVs are designed to be heated differently than an ICE.


It's actually not irrelevant I was just responding to what you said specifically. Anyone who is not a complete moron would realize that responses that include quotes are generally responding specifically to what is in the quote.

There are two scenarios. One is short trips (daily commuting and running errands) and one is long trips (road trips requiring multiple refuels as quickly as possible). There are advantages and disadvantages in each scenario all of which have been hashed out in this thread already. Nice try though.
2015 S with Charge Package

SageBrush
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Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:24 am

Sagebrush, I know that you believe that you're surrounded by morons, and now we all know this too. Do NOT keep telling us.

Why not ?
I spent years telling people they were making themselves sick. Occasionally they took heed
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
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Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:43 am

golfcart wrote:Anyone who is not a complete moron would realize that responses that include quotes are generally responding specifically to what is in the quote.

In your case you were quoting out of context. Thus my reply that your comment was irrelevant to the AAA or Oak Ridge results.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

golfcart
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:21 am

SageBrush wrote:
golfcart wrote:Anyone who is not a complete moron would realize that responses that include quotes are generally responding specifically to what is in the quote.

In your case you were quoting out of context. Thus my reply that your comment was irrelevant to the AAA or Oak Ridge results.


Once again not true. The comment was in reference to the two reasons you posted in response to Titanium48 (see below). Any mention of the Oak Ridge study from me came after your response to Titanium48 was posted and was in a different context entirely. You are 0-2, want to keep swinging?

Original Exchange In Question wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
Do ICE owners then say "Ahh, I guess that means I cannot take my ICE out for a long trip ?"
Obviously no, for two reasons:
1. is that they refuel more often
2. The other is that during a long trip the warm-up penalty is diluted by the length of the trip.


It would probably be useful to add

3. They can put 300+ miles of range back in their vehicle in about 2 minutes using a vast network of refueling stations as opposed to a best case scenario of an hour to do so in an EV. This is admittedly, at least in part, an infrastructure issue that could be fixed in time... but it explains a lot of the reason why people are more sensitive to EV range losses than ICE range losses.

For what it is worth, I would see about a 10% loss in winter range when I had my WRX on my daily routine using the heat at 70deg. I see about a 30% loss in my Leaf doing the same. Of course I don't drive my Leaf like that unless the family is with me but it is illustrative none the less.

For those who are sticklers about following EPA procedures, the Oak Ridge National Laboratory actually did compare ICE vehicles and hybrids using EPA procedures. They found the following:

Cold weather and winter driving conditions can reduce your fuel economy significantly.

Fuel economy tests show that, in short-trip city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is about 12% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 22% for very short trips (3 to 4 miles).

The effect on hybrids is worse. Their fuel economy can drop about 31% to 34% under these conditions.


Unfortunately they don't link to the actual study and I couldn't find it with a quick search. But they do offer a lot of helpful info on maximizing your winter efficiency in any type of vehicle.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml
2015 S with Charge Package

iPlug
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Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:29 am

I used to drive a '95 Honda Civic. Had it for 17 years and lived in and drove it in several climates over those years. For my use, it was more sensitive to the cold during short trips than we have experienced in our Leaf.

On one end of the spectrum, the Civic would get up to 43 mpg (without AC) on 40 mile long open freeway summer commutes I had for a few years, ~30mpg in the winter. At a different point, the car was used to commute ~4 miles in St. Louis, MO. It sat in an open garage in the basement floor of my apartment building. In the summer it would get ~25 mpg due to the warm up penalty. However, during 10-20 ºF winter days I got only ~13-15 mpg.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

specialgreen
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Location: Minnesota

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:21 am

As SageBrush noted, distance matters (because, like preheat, once the car is warm, it takes less energy to keep it warm). For a single trip, speed also matters. My Leaf uses 5kw to heat if I blast the Defrost. Using 5kw constant consumption for heat as just one example:

If you are driving at 85 mph for an hour, consuming 0.4 kw-hrs per mile for propulsion(*), then in one hour you’d spend 34 kw-hrs on driving and 5 on heating (13% of energy consumption spent on heat). The high driving speed uses lots of energy for travel, and the short time per-mile uses less energy per-mile for heat.

But if you’re driving a constant 45 mph for an hour, consuming 0.1818 kw-hrs per mile, then you’d use 8.18 kw-hrs on driving and 5 on heat ( 38% of energy going to heat). That’s almost triple the “percent” range loss versus driving 85mph.

A commuter with traffic jams or stop-and-go city traffic will have an even more lopsided loss (50%+?).

For a fixed distance (say, 20 miles), Freeway commuters vs Highway vs City vs Stop-&-Go/traffic jam drivers will have very different experiences with EV range reduction. The slower you drive, and the more times you stop, the bigger the percent loss in range. So is the true EV range loss 13% or 50%+? Trying to describe range loss using a single percent number is pretty meaningless.

It would be more helpful to describe range reduction as miles lost per quarter-hour of commute time (including all stops); and give separate values for "city" and "highway." Everybody knows how long it takes to get home (including shopping/kids), so they can visualize what their range reduction would be.

((*)energy consumption estimates taken from Tony Williams range chart)

SageBrush
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Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:03 am

specialgreen wrote:For a fixed distance (say, 20 miles), Freeway commuters vs Highway vs City vs Stop-&-Go/traffic jam drivers will have very different experiences with EV range reduction. The slower you drive, and the more times you stop, the bigger the percent loss in range. So is the true EV range loss 13% or 50%+? Trying to describe range loss using a single percent number is pretty meaningless.

Fair POV, although I think the common day usage of 'range' is "can my car make it to my destination ?", not what will the efficiency be.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:05 am

iPlug wrote:I used to drive a '95 Honda Civic. Had it for 17 years and lived in and drove it in several climates over those years. For my use, it was more sensitive to the cold during short trips than we have experienced in our Leaf.

On one end of the spectrum, the Civic would get up to 43 mpg (without AC) on 40 mile long open freeway summer commutes I had for a few years, ~30mpg in the winter. At a different point, the car was used to commute ~4 miles in St. Louis, MO. It sat in an open garage in the basement floor of my apartment building. In the summer it would get ~25 mpg due to the warm up penalty. However, during 10-20 ºF winter days I got only ~13-15 mpg.

Exactly.

Now where is that AAA study exposing the horrible range of ICE cars ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

iPlug
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:10 am

While ICE/piston technology is long matured and does have certain advantages in certain situations, EV tech is improving rapidly and will continue to do so for a long time.

Batteries are getting more affordable at more than a snail's pace, battery energy density is increasing, solid state tech is deep into advanced research stages and reliably around the corner, heat pumps continue to improve, charging infrastructure is growing, fast charging is getting faster, etc...

Still a BEV works well right now for a large percent of people, even in the middle of winter. It only gets better from here and becomes more convenient and more affordable for more people each year.

YMMV.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

specialgreen
Posts: 227
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Location: Minnesota

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:25 am

SageBrush wrote:I think the common day usage of 'range' is "can my car make it to my destination ?", not what will the efficiency be.


Yes; I agree that "efficiency" will not be understood. I'm suggesting something simple like:

- City commute: 9 miles of range reduction per 15 minutes of commute time (*)
- Highway commute: 5 miles of range reduction per 15 minutes of commute time (**)

Find me a commuter who doesn't know how long it takes to drive home! A commuter who knows that it takes them 35 minutes to get home (counting a stop at day-care) in city traffic would guess that they will lose a bit more than 18 miles range in their winter commute (35 minutes = a bit more than 2x 15 minutes).

These numbers are probably off; I'm just going by the range calcs (which don't go below 45mph), and not counting things like snow tires, snow, etc. But with some real-world testing, you could get a pair of city/highway numbers that would be more helpful to the average driver than a straight "% miles reduction" number, and would account for both driving speed and stopping time.

((*)35 mph, 7 mi/kw-hr, 5kw heating sacrifices 35 miles range per hour driven, or 8.75 miles per 15 minutes)
((**) 60 mph, 4.3 mi/kw-hr, 5kw heating sacrifices 21.5 miles range per hour driven, or 5.375 miles per 15 minutes)

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