Full charge or not?

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LeafyGreenz

New member
Joined
Dec 13, 2018
Messages
2
Tesla owners are apparently advised to charge no more than 80% on a regular basis. I don’t recall being warned that at all on the Leaf. I don’t see anything in the manual suggesting that. I do recall being told to avoid >80% on a level 3 charger. But I don’t see anything saying that going to 100% on a trickle charge or level 2 (220/240v) is a problem. Am I missing something?
 
The early Leaf models had an 80% option but Nissan did away with that in 2013 or 2014 (I forget which). I don't bother trying to fuss over it since there is no easy way to not charge to full. Just plan ahead to not leave the car on full charge for a long time, especially if it is hot which causes the worst degradation. I am over 2.5 years into my 2015 and have over 32K miles and still have 12 bars capacity.
 
It's best to keep the Leaf (and all other lithium-powered EVs) at no more than 80% charge if it won't be driven immediately. This is a characteristic of all lithium batteries. Nissan, having been burned by the EPA range estimate dropping when they had an 80% limit in 2013, now steadfastly refuses to even mention it again.
 
Lithium ion batteries (like in the Leaf) degrade a bit faster near full charge (100%) and near empty (0%). For the absolute best battery life, you would want to keep the battery charge near 50%. Of course if you kept it at 50% all the time you wouldn't be able to go anywhere, but there are things you can do to help keep the battery from sitting at 100% for long periods of time. This is what I suggest:

  1. Set your charging timer to finish charging to 100% right before you leave for work or school.
  2. When you get home from work, school, etc. in the evening, plug it in but don't start charging unless you have less than 20% battery, in which case you can hit the charging timer override button.
  3. If you hit the charge timer override button, check the lights blinking on the dash. When the second one starts to blink (meaning it has passed 30% charge) then unplug and plug back in the EVSE so it will stop charging.
  4. The next moring your Leaf will automatically charge up to 100% right before you take off for work, school, etc.

Of course this only works if you don't rely on your Leaf as an emergency vehicle during the night, in which case you either have to charge to 100% as soon as you get home in the evening or figure out a way to charge just to 80% (or whatever percentage you'd need to go to the hospital or whatever.).
 
I sorta get what ur saying. But in nearly a year of owning, I’m not sure the car has ever hit 20%. I just don’t drive that far. But setting timer
to charge at night on a normal night where I don’t go far makes sense. Thx.
 
LeafyGreenz said:
Tesla owners are apparently advised to charge no more than 80% on a regular basis. I don’t recall being warned that at all on the Leaf. I don’t see anything in the manual suggesting that. I do recall being told to avoid >80% on a level 3 charger. But I don’t see anything saying that going to 100% on a trickle charge or level 2 (220/240v) is a problem. Am I missing something?

You actually have it a bit backwards.

On L3; You will be driving off immediately and the ramp down of the charge rate reduces heat build up after a certain point. The key thing is reducing the time your pack is at high SOC. Heat acts as a catalyst for degradation. Yes, L3 generates heat but unless you are charging locally and then driving a few miles to home, you are better off doing than

On L2; Slower, MUCH more convenient but potentially much worse for long term degradation when charging to 100%. Less heat is created but there is a lot more time at high SOC which is actually the prime thing you need to worry about.

On TMS; The Tesla recommendation is solid since TMS does not solve anything but it does make it a lot easier to manage. TMS allows faster charging especially in hot areas of the country. Tesla's also have the advantage of having more range than needed 98% of the time.

Finally; all the above MUST take a backseat to your driving needs. A few things to consider;

Charge every day; If you only drive 25 miles per day, fine plug it in for 2 hours a day or one hour. Whatever it is you need.

Always include a reserve. How much? YOU know YOU better than anyone so you decide how much is enough. People are rather habitual. Your detours from the norm probably fall into less than a half dozen destinations. Map it on Google so you know how far it is. Don't guess; You will be surprised how many people underestimate their needs. Google Maps allows 10 way points. More than enough to cover you.

Don't charge to a higher level than you need. Your pack prefers life in the middle. So if you need 30% Plug it in at 35%, unplug it at 65%. If you need 50%, plug in at 25% unplug at 75%. If you need more than 50% charge it to full. But remember to charge every day.

Note; Nissan does not allow custom charge settings (BIGGEST oversight EVER) so you have to basically learn your charge timer settings and your EVSE's capability.
 
LeafyGreenz said:
I sorta get what ur saying. But in nearly a year of owning, I’m not sure the car has ever hit 20%. I just don’t drive that far. But setting timer
to charge at night on a normal night where I don’t go far makes sense. Thx.
If you have a "start charging" option on your charge timer, I suggest to not use it. If you just set the time you want it to finish the charger will come on automatically with enough time to charge up by the time you need to go somewhere.
 
There is just no practical way to charge my 2018 LEAF to anything less than 100%. Unlike my Tesla, LEAF does not offer any way to limit charge level.

Also, due to it's limited range, I told my wife and my daughter (who both drive the LEAF) to plug it in as soon as they got home and not to use the timer. You just never know when you will need the range. Just tonight, my daughter got a phone call from her friend who was stuck because her car broke down. My daughter ended up driving the LEAF for about 60 miles, totally unplanned. In this case she did not HAVE to drive the LEAF, she could have taken one of the other two cars in our family, but that is not always the case.
 
Only one of those two claims is true. There IS a practical way to limit charge (although not precisely) but you don't feel that you can do so because you apparently need to have over 100 miles of range available. I'm luckier, in that I only need maybe 70 miles for contingencies.
 
tcherniaev said:
There is just no practical way to charge my 2018 LEAF to anything less than 100%. Unlike my Tesla, LEAF does not offer any way to limit charge level.

Also, due to it's limited range, I told my wife and my daughter (who both drive the LEAF) to plug it in as soon as they got home and not to use the timer. You just never know when you will need the range. Just tonight, my daughter got a phone call from her friend who was stuck because her car broke down. My daughter ended up driving the LEAF for about 60 miles, totally unplanned. In this case she did not HAVE to drive the LEAF, she could have taken one of the other two cars in our family, but that is not always the case.

In today's "push two buttons then throw a hissy fit because it didn't do what you wanted" society, you are dead on correct.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Finally; all the above MUST take a backseat to your driving needs. A few things to consider;

Charge every day; If you only drive 25 miles per day, fine plug it in for 2 hours a day or one hour. Whatever it is you need.

Always include a reserve. How much? YOU know YOU better than anyone so you decide how much is enough. People are rather habitual. Your detours from the norm probably fall into less than a half dozen destinations. Map it on Google so you know how far it is. Don't guess; You will be surprised how many people underestimate their needs. Google Maps allows 10 way points. More than enough to cover you.

Don't charge to a higher level than you need. Your pack prefers life in the middle. So if you need 30% Plug it in at 35%, unplug it at 65%. If you need 50%, plug in at 25% unplug at 75%. If you need more than 50% charge it to full. But remember to charge every day.

Why?
 
I guess he's telling you to charge no more than absolutely necessary, and as a result to charge daily to keep that small reserve in place. But if you don't drive on a given day there isn't any reason to charge.
 
I just charge it full. I'm over 41K miles in Dallas, Texas (hot climate) and still have 12 bars. I interpret Nissan's instructions to just charge the car and not worry about it.

NISSAN recommends that you connect the normal charge cable when getting out of the vehicle, even if it is not going to be used. By doing this, you can get the most out of the remote climate control (models with navigation system) and Climate Ctrl. Timer functions the next time you use the vehicle.

The manual then outlines best-practices, and none of them have anything to do with short-charging your car.

To maximize the battery’s useful life, use the following driving and charging habits where possible:
  • Avoid exposing a vehicle to extreme ambient temperatures for extended periods.
  • Avoid storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13°F (-25°C) for over 7 days.
  • Avoid leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the Li-ion battery available charge gauge reaches a zero or near zero (state of charge).
  • Allow the vehicle and Li-ion battery to cool down after use before charging.
  • Park/store your vehicle in cool locations out of direct sunlight and away from heat sources.
  • Avoid sustained high battery temperatures (caused, for example, by exposure to very high ambient temperatures or extending highway driving with multiple quick charges).
  • Use the normal charging or trickle charging methods to charge the Li-ion battery and minimize the use of public Fast Charge or Quick Charger.
  • Avoid repetitive charging of the Li-ion battery with high battery state of charge.
  • Moderate driving.
  • Use of ECO mode.
 
valem said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Finally; all the above MUST take a backseat to your driving needs. A few things to consider;

Charge every day; If you only drive 25 miles per day, fine plug it in for 2 hours a day or one hour. Whatever it is you need.

Always include a reserve. How much? YOU know YOU better than anyone so you decide how much is enough. People are rather habitual. Your detours from the norm probably fall into less than a half dozen destinations. Map it on Google so you know how far it is. Don't guess; You will be surprised how many people underestimate their needs. Google Maps allows 10 way points. More than enough to cover you.

Don't charge to a higher level than you need. Your pack prefers life in the middle. So if you need 30% Plug it in at 35%, unplug it at 65%. If you need 50%, plug in at 25% unplug at 75%. If you need more than 50% charge it to full. But remember to charge every day.

Why?


Because charging every 3 days (assuming driving patterns are fairly consistent) means you put in 3X more than you needed
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Because charging every 3 days (assuming driving patterns are fairly consistent) means you put in 3X more than you needed

DaveinOlyWA that really does not answer my question.

We know charging to 100% and leaving it is bad. Same with low % and leaving it.

But supposedly leaving it in the 20-80% range is ok. So if I use 20%/day, why not charge to 80%, and on the 3rd day when it's at 20% charge back to 80%.

Why is it better to plug in for 30min every day, rather thank for 90 min every 3 days.

Answering " just because it is" ... is not an answer.

I'm keeping an extremely detailed log (which I will post one day) of my charge discharge SOH, AHr, Hx which includes mileage, battery and ambient temp, L2 or QC etc, basically I record everything from LSP everytime I drive and everytime I charge, and what I am seeing is that (if SOH is related to degradation) is that it drops with usage. The more I drive the more SOH and AHr drops. No matter my charging habits.
If the car sits (as long as it's not 100% or dead) there's hardly any drop in Hx or SOH or AHr ... bu when I drive, regardless of QC, L2 20 to 80, 40 to 60, it matters not... mileage is causing Hx, SOH and AHr to drop.

I'm noticing about 1% (SOH loss) per 1000 miles, again, regardless of charging habits.

So tell me why do I need to charge every day... from what I am learning so far, it appears that the only way to preserve this Leaf battery, is to charge it to somewhere around 50% and leave it in a climate control garage, and never use it... Anything else you do, will cause degradation.
 
I'm noticing about 1% (SOH loss) per 1000 miles, again, regardless of charging habits.


I only have about 1300 miles on mine, and I was losing half a percent a month in warm weather. I think that, at least in the first year, it's calendar and heat loses, not miles driven. Number of charges may matter though - especially QC.
 
valem said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Because charging every 3 days (assuming driving patterns are fairly consistent) means you put in 3X more than you needed

DaveinOlyWA that really does not answer my question.

We know charging to 100% and leaving it is bad. Same with low % and leaving it.

But supposedly leaving it in the 20-80% range is ok. So if I use 20%/day, why not charge to 80%, and on the 3rd day when it's at 20% charge back to 80%.

Why is it better to plug in for 30min every day, rather thank for 90 min every 3 days.

Answering " just because it is" ... is not an answer.

I'm keeping an extremely detailed log (which I will post one day) of my charge discharge SOH, AHr, Hx which includes mileage, battery and ambient temp, L2 or QC etc, basically I record everything from LSP everytime I drive and everytime I charge, and what I am seeing is that (if SOH is related to degradation) is that it drops with usage. The more I drive the more SOH and AHr drops. No matter my charging habits.
If the car sits (as long as it's not 100% or dead) there's hardly any drop in Hx or SOH or AHr ... bu when I drive, regardless of QC, L2 20 to 80, 40 to 60, it matters not... mileage is causing Hx, SOH and AHr to drop.

I'm noticing about 1% (SOH loss) per 1000 miles, again, regardless of charging habits.

So tell me why do I need to charge every day... from what I am learning so far, it appears that the only way to preserve this Leaf battery, is to charge it to somewhere around 50% and leave it in a climate control garage, and never use it... Anything else you do, will cause degradation.

Even you admit the 80% rule is hardly confirmed. No doubt the seed of that thought was planted by Nissan's long gone 80% setting. In retrospect; 80% charging on a vehicle that really didn't have the range to spare was "almost" as silly as removing the option in a car (40 kwh) that does.

Is charging every day a hassle? If it is, then don't do it. The number was by and large pulled out of... a dark place. It is really is the perceived compromise between convenience and concern. We don't want to overcharge or undercharge so someone decided 80% fits the bill.

Is taking the advice of other EV manufacturers not advisable? Tesla "also" recommends charging every day. They also recommend not charging beyond your needs either.

Realistically whether you do 80% every 3 days or 60% every day, the difference will likely be small but that does not mean it doesn't matter. I mean if its really that much of a hassle, do whatever.

Finally your "just because" statement tells me you have already gotten an answer to your question from yourself.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Finally your "just because" statement tells me you have already gotten an answer to your question from yourself.


No, sorry if I may have come across as a smart@$$.
Mine was an honest question, of why charge every day. I did not know the answer.

I bought the car with 94% SOH and just over 2k miles later it's now 91.xx%
Weather has been in the 70s, I have only charged to 100% twice in the past 3 monts, and no matter what I do, SOH keeps ticking down 0.01% at a time.

So I have been plotting all of the LSP data along with my charging, ambient temp and battery temps and the only thing that seems to be consistent is SOH decreases as mileage increases.

And actually DCQC seems to pause the decrease in SOH.
 
valem said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Finally your "just because" statement tells me you have already gotten an answer to your question from yourself.


No, sorry if I may have come across as a smart@$$.
Mine was an honest question, of why charge every day. I did not know the answer.

I bought the car with 94% SOH and just over 2k miles later it's now 91.xx%
Weather has been in the 70s, I have only charged to 100% twice in the past 3 monts, and no matter what I do, SOH keeps ticking down 0.01% at a time.

So I have been plotting all of the LSP data along with my charging, ambient temp and battery temps and the only thing that seems to be consistent is SOH decreases as mileage increases.

And actually DCQC seems to pause the decrease in SOH.

Not sure how I can say it any better. If you are only charging once every 3 days regularly, then you are charging 3X more than you need. The 80% number is a compromise determined by someone else between "battery best" and "unexpected emergency need"

The latter is a personal evaluation only you can make. How often do things pop up that require you to add a significant amount of miles to your car? For some, it happens relatively often; 2-3 times a week. For others; a few times a year.

Now with longer range, you have a much greater ability to absorb those surprises. Don't know your situation but for me, those surprises generally means maybe an additional 20-30 miles.

So now we go back to your situation of having an SOC anywhere from 20% (IMHO is too low) to 80% (IMHO is too high for your needs)

So if you were bouncing between 40 to 60% everyday, an additional 30 miles could be done easily since you would have "around" 60% * 151 miles or 90 miles minus your 20% daily usage (30 miles) or 60 miles just in case. There is a lot of data that suggests the shallower the cycle, the better the longevity.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of 12 volt battery issues. Earlier LEAFs seemed to have no real solution as they seemed to crap out no matter what the charging habits. Newer LEAFs seem to be either better or simply not enough data or time to determine anything. But the predominance of battery issues happened with people who didn't charge every day.

In the grand scheme of things; its up to you to decide what works for you. I know several people who drive very little like yourself and they charge to 80% but do it everyday. in fact, I know a couple who plug in EVERY time they get home even if they are out 3-4 times in one day which does happen for them once a month when they do their Costco/pharma run. They probably put on maybe 30 miles? Even that is better than charging every 3 days.
 
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