Winter range observation/question

Morning,
I'm running a 2016 SV with a 65 mile per day commute in northern Vermont, USA.
I have two options for route. An Interstate and a state road. The state road speed limit is 50 mph and the Interstate is 65 mph.
I've been swapping between both roads at different temperatures to see which is more efficient.
The obvious answer you would think I'd the slower road.
I'm find this is not always the case. In the summer yes. Driving the slower road leaves me with more charge left when I return home than drive into the faster road.
However now that it's colder, they are almost the same. Speeds being 60 mph on the interstate and 45-50 on the state road.
The State road takes more time. I am wondering if that longer time running heat is drawing enough battery to negate the savings from driving slower.
The miles per kWh readings are within a few points difference so that backs up that theory.
It seems when it is colder, single digits F, the difference is reduced.
It seems the cars range in single digit weather is about 80 miles regardless of speed. Not exceeding the speed limits in these cases. I do reduce the heat use to minimal fan speed, 65F temp setting, and set the recirculate to partial. I work outside so I'm dressed for cold anyway. With the heated seat an occasionally turning on the steering wheel heat I'm quite comfortable. I do notice that when leaving the climate control set on auto the system uses a lot more power. That setting keeps the fan on a fast speed.
Any have thoughts on this?
This is my first winter with a BEV so I'm still learning.
Thanks and have a great holiday.

Cabin heating strikes me as the obvious answer too.
Do you pre-condition the car before either half-trip ?

Do you have the 24 or 30 kWh battery ?

Yes I'd say cabin heat is making your difference. A route that takes more time, even if overall more efficient for the drive motor, will take more cabin heat for the extra time. In this case I'd say drive the route you want, it's a wash.
To get 80 miles in the cold the OP must certainly have the 30Kwh battery

I agree it's the heat. You might want to look into my "Heater In A Box" idea. Search the phrase for the topic.

SageBrush said:

Cabin heating strikes me as the obvious answer too.
Do you pre-condition the car before either half-trip ?

Do you have the 24 or 30 kWh battery ?

Click to expand...

I don't pre heat as I'm using L1 and the battery hit isn't that much different than just driving.

I have the 30 kWh.

I've been hashing over the benefits of each route since I got the car. The slow route involves more stops and starts which means more brake use. A wear item of sorts. Also it's a much rougher road, especially in winter, so the wear and tear over time would be more.

Now the range difference seems to almost be a wash at the speeds I drive. Of course if I went 70 mph the whole way it would be a different story.

I do have to charge to %100 to do this. It's cold so I doubt the battery will be damaged much.

As an aside, the SOH is still 97%. Interesting that it got as low as 94% then I took a trip to Boston, MA and back which required 3 long QC sessions and 2 short which raised the battery temp close to the top of the scale. When I got home the SOH had gone up and it has stayed the way for several months.

Has there been much discussion about the 30 kWh battery in winter here? I didn't hit anything specific to the 30 kWh battery.

We all know searching here is not that easy. I used the site:mynissanleaf.com parameter in Google and still didn't get anything recent.

After reading a post here about why lithium battery die. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15796
It seems the chemistry of the 30 kWh is changed from previous and it would be great to hear form folks that have this battery.
This may have to be a new topic I expect.

Happy New Year everyone!

gregn said:

SageBrush said:

Cabin heating strikes me as the obvious answer too.
Do you pre-condition the car before either half-trip ?

Do you have the 24 or 30 kWh battery ?

Click to expand...

I don't pre heat as I'm using L1 and the battery hit isn't that much different than just driving.
I have the 30 kWh.

I do have to charge to %100 to do this. It's cold so I doubt the battery will be damaged much.

Click to expand...

You are probably right, but I personally would err on the safe side and try to avoid daily 100% charge routines by taking advantage of pre-heating. An L2 installation (if possible) is cheap insurance against accelerated battery aging, and the other benefits are free ;-)

One other approach to consider in looking for ways to reduce trip consumption: start the trip with a warm (but not hot) battery. This amounts to timing your charge to end a short time before you take off in the AM. You actually gain two benefits here: less trip consumption lets you start from a lower SOC, and the battery does not have to operate against the higher internal resistance that cold brings.

your supposition is likely incorrect. it would help if you gave real commute times but guessing most of the difference is not heat, its the inability to maintain a more constant speed on highways.

You are probably burning up electrons to warm yourself at the rate of 5-7 miles per hour. Not likely to be significant when comparing the two commute time differences which is what?? 15-20 mins?

But the difference between a constant 60 mph and an up and down 50 mph is much greater.

Either way; more detail is needed to make a real judgment


FYI; I don't work outside and my acclimation to cold is likely nowhere near your level but I would be sweating bricks at 65º

Thanks for all the replies. Good info. I think I will run several days of data logging with LeafSpy to see what's happening. That app should give me an idea.

I was actually hoping for some folks that have the same model year ( 2016 SV) as I do to chime in. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems most of you have cars with the 24kWh battery some with the older heating system.

When it's in the single digits the heat pump doesn't run so the consumption is much higher. Keeping the fan speed m=low seems to help that a lot and the car is tolerable.

I did try pre-heating yesterday ( L1, I am stuck with that as I live in an apartment ) and it did take the edge of but cost a at least 1% of the battery and after 15 min the car wasn't that warm. It was 14ºF outside. I didn't check the car temp before I started the remote so I don't know what that was like. I do know the get gets pretty comfortable fast when driving.

Thanks for the help.

gregn said:

I did try pre-heating yesterday ( L1, I am stuck with that as I live in an apartment ) and it did take the edge of but cost a at least 1% of the battery and after 15 min the car wasn't that warm. It was 14ºF outside. I didn't check the car temp before I started the remote so I don't know what that was like. I do know the get gets pretty comfortable fast when driving.

Click to expand...

This got my attention:
1) You really need L2 to accomplish anything on pre-heat
2) Temps that low (< 20ºF) have a huge affect on range: not only is the battery capacity reduced, but the energy required to run the heater is greater

Bottom line: extremely low temps are brutal on EV range (the car runs great...just not near as far as you'd think)!

Preheating on L1 is hardly worth it, best to just get in car, turn it on and set your heat, get out of car and lock it with either the remote or outside door handle button and head in your house for a cup of coffee. 15 min later head out to a warm car, L1 hardly makes a difference. If all you had access to was L1 and my first option would run your battery down too low for your make your commute then instead of using your outlet to plug the car in, in the morning use it for a 1500w space heater inside your car. Still charge the car to 100% during the night but in the morning switch the plug to a space heater on the cabin floor. This should result in a somewhat warm 100% charged car. To get good morning warmup and not lose charge you really need L2 and a minimum of 19a, 16a(or 3.6kw @ 240v) will gradually lose charge, 19a will gradually gain charge, keeping just even with charge will be somewhere between the two, depending on outside temps.

If all you had access to was L1 and my first option would run your battery down too low for your make your commute then instead of using your outlet to plug the car in, in the morning use it for a 1500w space heater inside your car. Still charge the car to 100% during the night but in the morning switch the plug to a space heater on the cabin floor.

Click to expand...

First, preheating for about 2 minutes makes a difference in comfort while only using about 2% charge. Second, if you go the space heater route, there is no need for a 1500 watt heater; a ceramic heater set to 500-1000 watts will work fine, with less danger.

Again, Thanks.
I was never one to pre heat an ICE car. Ran Saabs for a long time and they do best just getting in and driving.
My last car was a Honda Fit and I had heat in a few minutes of driving.
The Leaf gives A reasonably comfortable cabin and a few minutes as well. faster than the Fit. It's the seat heat and steering wheel heat I believe gives that perception of warmth.

So far my experience is the same as has been noted that the L1 pre heat is a waste of time and energy. Even on the one below zero day we have had I was comfortable enough in a few minutes.
I have been using heater manually not auto. Auto seems to be quite the hog. Runs the fan high and consequently runs through a lot of juice. I have been setting the fan to 1 or 2 after a initially 4 or so to get the car a bit warmer. Heat set to 65. I use the option of setting the recirculation to half which does reduce the cold air intake enough to lower the energy use. This on a very cold day. Around freezing temps it doesn't have as much impact as the heat pump is doing the heating.
At -6ºF I got the energy use to around 1.5 kWh with those settings and the car was warm enough for my taste. I checked LeafSpy and it was all restive heat.

I have a pretty good cold tolerance so for me dragging a heater into the car isn't worth it. I also have my car in an underground parking area so it's out of the wind and seems to stay a bit warmer. It's not closed in completely.

Yesterday I did the commute on 90% charge and still made it home. LBW tripped as I got to town @5:30pm and @6am the next morning the battery was at 69%. Enough to get me to work if I had to and there is plenty of charging options in Vermont so I wouldn't be stranded by any means. I can always bring my L1 to work with me and charge there. I resist that cause it's nice not to have the deal with all the plugins and unplugging.

I do plan to submit my unit for the EVSE Upgrade soon. I do know that now if on the edge of the cars range in several years I will need destination charging to make the trip. I do have access to 240V at work. It's a farm and I am the maintenance person so I can install an 30 A outlet in a good spot.

Back to topic, I posted because I haven't seen a lot of talk about the new 30 kWh batteries. It seems most folks here own the older cars where you all were the real pioneers. Thanks to all of you. I'm sure your courage to make the purchase back when it was hard to find charging options other than at home really helped get us where we are today.
I am thankful I live in Vermont as we have a fairly robust public charging network. Check out https://www.plugshare.com and scroll to Vermont to see what I mean. For such a small state it's pretty well covered.

If I am wrong about not finding threads by 2016 users please correct me. Any suggestions on how to search this forum better are also welcome.
(Addition; I do notice troubleshooting question that are 2016 related but not many regarding normal use)

Cheers!

We Have two 2016 SV. Great cars, and the heat pump is perfect in our mild Seattle weather. Even on cool days, the first few minutes of startup will juice the resistance PTC heater at several KW until the heat pump can ramp up to maintain. Personally I'd not bother with a space heater either when the car has one built in.

You can configure the precondition target temperature in the touch screen menus, and if you set the seat/steering heater switches on, those will be activated during cabin pre-conditioning.

Another tip: I'm sure you already know that leaving Eco mode enabled will limit max power used for the climate control system, as well as disable rapid cooling/heating of the cabin on startup. Pros and cons there.

I traded in my 2013 Leaf for a 2016 model last April, and have been getting extremely good range, albeit driving it with an intent to maximize miles/kWh. Over the past 10 months, the cumulative average efficiency has been 4.1 mi/kWh, which comes out to an average range of 123 miles with its 30kWh battery.

From April through November it was getting 4.1 to 4.3 mi/kWh on a monthly basis, but then in December it suddenly took a dive, down to 3.7 kWh, which it has repeated (exactly) in January so far. Our driving habits haven't changed, so I presume this reduction is due to the chillier ambient temperatures, and am expecting the average energy efficiency to rise again when the weather warms up. We don't use the seat or steering wheel heaters, but do use the regular heater on occasion. Additionally, we always drive in ECO mode.

Here's the monthly mi/kwh data, along with the average ambient temperature each month according to data from a nearby weather station:

Apr 2016 - 4.2 mi/kwh - 64 deg. avg
May 2016 - 4.2 mi/kwh - 65 deg. avg
Jun 2016 - 4.1 mi/kwh - 68 deg. avg
Jul 2016 - 4.2 mi/kwh - 67 deg. avg
Aug 2016 - 4.1 mi/kwh - 67 deg. avg
Sep 2016 - 4.2 mi/kwh - 66 deg. avg
Oct 2016 - 4.3 mi/kwh - 63 deg. avg
Nov 2016 - 4.3 mi/kwh - 57 deg. avg
Dec 2016 - 3.7 mi/kwh - 51 deg. avg
Jan 2017 - 3.7 mi/kwh - 50 deg. avg

The 2013 Leaf never seemed to deviate from about 4.2 mi/kwh year round, so the 12% range drop in Dec/Jan was quite a surprise, and makes me wonder if something else is going on. But it will be interesting to see what happens as Spring arrives.

The average monthly temperatures are for Palo Alto, CA, and obtained here:
https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KPAO

This is my first winter with a LEAF, so I went out for a ~ 20 mile drive the other day to get to know the car and enjoy the day. It was about 32F, the roads were wet, and I took a hilly route that gained about 1000 feet before I turned around. I started with 80 miles on the GOM, was down to 56 at my half-way point, and returned home with 73 miles

The GOM is just that, but my trip was 4.6 miles/kWh. Very pleased
I had the seat heater on for about half the trip, and ventilation to keep the glass clear.

Just remember: the heating system is there to enjoy whenever you need it and can afford the modest (at that temp) range loss. Don't be an EV Driver Stereotype. ;-)

Hi,
I thought I would pass on an update as winter has been in existence for a bit.
After playing around with all the different options for commuting I have settled on a normal.

I have decided that treating this car as normal as possible is the best test. By that I mean what a recent convert from an ICE car would want.
That is what we will have to do if EVs are to become main stream I believe.

Convenience is paramount with most folks. So how does the 2016 SV Leaf do with that in mind.
As I said I tried to make my whole commute on one charge which the car can do. If I drive the slower road and use minimal climate control. I ma left with 20% in 32ºF weather and just past LBW depending on heat use in 0ºF temps. My commute os 65 miles. I am confident I could get 80 miles out of it ifs I had to.
That doesn't really fit the convenient requirement though.

I have always had workplace charging available so when I use that I can drive as fast as I want in whatever weather and use the heat as much as needed. I am still on L1 although I just ordered the EVSE Upgrade for my unit included with the car. There is a 30 amp 240v outlet at work and that will be much quicker and allow me to top up year round if i run errands. Also I believe having that will let me use the car for a long time as any battery degradation will be covered by the fact I can charge at work.
With L1 I have to stay at least 6-7 hours to get my trip back home covered. L2 will only need an hour or so.

Battery health remains at 98%

As we all know range issues aside the Leaf is a great car to drive. I put on Michelin XIce tires and it is great in the snow. It is stable and predictable at reasonable speeds. It doesn't seem to break loose anywhere near as easily as the Honda Fit I had before this. I had studs on that. Heavy car.
I also discovered it has auto off headlights. The recent update to LeafSpy Pro included some editable parameters for those but I assumed that was for the SL cars. I happened to be standing next to my car with the lights on after turning the car of an the lights went out. I tried the settings in LeafSpy and the delay parameter can be changed for the SV as well. No I can leave my lights on always and not worry about forgetting them. I shortened the delay to 30 sec. I assume that feature was always there but I never tried it.

gregn said:

I have always had workplace charging available so when I use that I can drive as fast as I want in whatever weather and use the heat as much as needed. I am still on L1 although I just ordered the EVSE Upgrade for my unit included with the car. There is a 30 amp 240v outlet at work and that will be much quicker and allow me to top up year round if i run errands. Also I believe having that will let me use the car for a long time as any battery degradation will be covered by the fact I can charge at work.
With L1 I have to stay at least 6-7 hours to get my trip back home covered. L2 will only need an hour or so.

Click to expand...

While the EVSEupgrade will be better than nothing, actually more than twice as fast as your OEM EVSE, you still won't be getting the maximum benefit from your work 30a outlet, only about half (16a). Now if you had a pre '15 OEM Leaf EVSE you'd get closer as those could be upgraded to 20a. In your case a 24a EVSE would gain you the fastest recovery time for your 27a Leaf. Of course if 16a gives you more than enough charge thats OK too, just thought I'd point this out
Lastly do you know the NEMA type of outlet you have at work? EVSEupgrade uses a L6-30 but I believe they sell adapters($25 each) that allow you to plug into various other outlets. You can also make your own adapter if your technical but often times the cost of the parts might approach the $25, if they sell adapters to the outlet you have.

deviceguru said:

We don't use the seat or steering wheel heaters, but do use the regular heater on occasion.

Click to expand...

I don't understand this. If you are uncomfortable enough to turn on the cabin heat - why not use the seat and steering wheel heaters? In my experience, they are much more energy efficient than the cabin heat.

jjeff said:

While the EVSEupgrade will be better than nothing, actually more than twice as fast as your OEM EVSE, you still won't be getting the maximum benefit from your work 30a outlet, only about half (16a). Now if you had a pre '15 OEM Leaf EVSE you'd get closer as those could be upgraded to 20a. In your case a 24a EVSE would gain you the fastest recovery time for your 27a Leaf. Of course if 16a gives you more than enough charge thats OK too, just thought I'd point this out
Lastly do you know the NEMA type of outlet you have at work? EVSEupgrade uses a L6-30 but I believe they sell adapters($25 each) that allow you to plug into various other outlets. You can also make your own adapter if your technical but often times the cost of the parts might approach the $25, if they sell adapters to the outlet you have.

Click to expand...

That speed increase is fine for what I need. I like the fact that it is a versatile unit. 120 or 240 V. Yes I bought the adapter. I have completed control of what outlet I use at work. I am the maintenance gut there and can install what ever I want. There is an existing L6-30 already installed on the Barn power box. All I have to do is add 8' or so of 10-3 or bigger if I have some around and add a fixed L6-30 where I need to plug in.

I will use the same unity at home on L1. I can't get a 240 line to where I park. I love in an apartment. The landlords were nice enough to let me install a line from my balcony to where I park. I amy still insure about a 240 line but it would involve a bit of drilling of walls to get it from my panel to the carpark. Not sure if they would go for that or not.

The combination of L2 even @ 16 amp and L1 at home will be planet for my needs. I've been getting by with just L1 at home in the summer and L1 on both ends in the recent cold.
I now have to scavenge public charging for some days while my EVSE unit is away getting upgraded. Today I'll see if I can make the trip on a single charge. 15ºF and snowing. We'll see.