2012 Leaf 4BL replacement vs remaining battery at 100%.

I have had my Nissan LEAF since 1/2012 and I love it but the battery continues to degrade. My car charges from 3 bars in under 4 hours or 12KwH added to the battery. It charged from 5 bars to 12 in under 2 hours at the dealer. Leaf Spy reports 93.8% SOC 219 GIDS and 17 KwH at 100% with 11 of 12 bars.

If I only have 17.0 KwH of 24 or just over 70% then how can Nissan claim this is acceptable?

Please help me understand?

The car has under 37k miles, garaged everynight at +- 15 degrees from room temp. No rapid charge, no top offs, no charging and leaving it full, etc. Never been in turtle mode either.

Well for starters, even brand new cars don't have 24kWh usable. They have more like 21kWh. Second, you need to run the car down a lot farther than three bars showing or you're ignoring one-third to one-half of your range.

Understood. So if I run it to one bar left and trickle charge with power meter wouldn't that be a foolproof way to determine what the battery is actually holding?

The real test is usable power. How much power do I have to drive?

The 120v EVSE is only 75% efficient, so you'll get a much bigger number than actually makes it into the battery. Run it down to NO bars showing and at least the first low battery warning. You'll still have between 9 and 13 actual miles of range available even then. The second low batt warning would be better. You'll still have between 3 and 5 miles left then. Use Tony Williams Range Chart: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293

It will be a big help. How many of the small bars do you have, anyway?

I show 11 of 12 small bars but my guess is it will drop again to 10 of 12 soon. I lost the first bar after 30k but not sure exactly.

Nissan is telling me the 17.0 KwH remaining at full charge from Leaf Spy is bad data and that there is no way to know the battery degredation. Right now all I can point to is the much faster L2 charging at less than 5 hours from 1 bar and first warning light. Never have gone below that.

His response was priceless. He said you should be happy it shows fully charged in half the time it did when it was new. It save you time.

BrianX said:

Understood. So if I run it to one bar left and trickle charge with power meter wouldn't that be a foolproof way to determine what the battery is actually holding?

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That won't tell you what the battery's holding, as it will include extra energy lost in the charging process. What's actually in the battery will be perhaps 80% (or less) of what the power meter will say. And going to only one bar left still leaves a lot of energy on the table - you need to go all the way past turtle to pack disconnect (you can do this in the garage by leaving defrost on; you don't need to be driving).

Another approach is resetting your trip odometer and efficiency meter after a full charge, then dividing miles by miles/kWh after running it all the way down to see what the battery will hold.

But you'll no doubt find that the 17 kWh you're seeing from Leafspy is pretty accurate, even though Nissan will ignore it as a matter of policy. 17/21 gives you about 81% of new capacity, which sounds about right for your Leaf's age/miles - actually it's probably a little above average. If your battery degrades all the way down to about 65% before 5 years / 60,000 miles are up you'll get a new battery, but that seems pretty unlikely in your case.

By the way, search the forum for "degradation" or "capacity loss" and you'll find some long and involved threads on the matter.

Part of the problem is I baby the car. I get 4.5 miles per kwh. I may start charging at work and home. I have 14 months left to 5yr 60k. Im just not getting the range I used to and will be forced to charge at work. Daily commute < 50 miles.

Your problem is exacerbated because as the battery degrades, more of your range (as a percentage) ends up in the last bar. You need to trust your LEAFSpy over the bars on the dash. Set it to show range in miles, and set the mpk that it uses to calculate that range to 4.5, if that's what you get consistently. If you do, I suspect you will find that you don't need to charge at work.

Here I have the problem of cold weather that takes 10-15% + any heat in cabin for couple months year.

Between 5-8 years warranty only covers battery completely dying right?

The new Nissan battery capacity warranty is 5 years/60,000 miles. At your loss rate, I don't see how you will qualify. Only one person we know of has been able to use the 8 year battery failure warranty to get a new battery, but we don't know the details on how they presented it. Nissan does not view gradual capacity loss as a failure.

Im close. I view once Leaf Spy and other battery tests show below 15.05 kWh that will be 70% capacity or 30% degredation loss. If 21.5 kWh is full then 21.5 x 70% = 15.05 kWh. I am at 17 kwh now. I think I will be down that far in 14 months at this rate.

BrianX said:

Im close. I view once Leaf Spy and other battery tests show below 15.05 kWh that will be 70% capacity or 30% degredation loss. If 21.5 kWh is full then 21.5 x 70% = 15.05 kWh. I am at 17 kwh now. I think I will be down that far in 14 months at this rate.

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It doesn't matter what leafspy says, as far as Nissan is concerned. You must have 4 bar loss of capacity (the small bars on R side of dash graph) in order to get warranty replacement of battery, that is the only metric that Nissan goes by for capacity warranty.

Despite what Nissan or the settlement terms might say, 70% is a meaningless number. The capacity warranty kicks in only when you've lost 4 bars, and reports in here suggest that happens at around 65% (as I said above), not 70%, and possibly even less.

Also keep in mind that this time of the year in many regions, the battery capacity will temporarily shrink due to cold at a rate of about 1% per 4F below 70F. You say it's plus or minus 15F from room temperature. A drop in temperature by only 15F from 70F, if the battery is left to soak to that temperature, will net a 4% loss in capacity, or about 3 to 4 miles of range. That loss is compounded by the permanent capacity loss that you're also experiencing.

fooljoe said:

Despite what Nissan or the settlement terms might say, 70% is a meaningless number. The capacity warranty kicks in only when you've lost 4 bars, and reports in here suggest that happens at around 65% (as I said above), not 70%, and possibly even less.

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66.25% if I recall correctly. Everyone else who has a capacity warranty marks battery EOL at 70%.

kubel said:

66.25% if I recall correctly. Everyone else who has a capacity warranty marks battery EOL at 70%.

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66.25% is again a number that Nissan has said, but is not when the bar loss actually happens according to the best data we have available. If you go by the SOH percentage in LeafSpy, don't expect you'll lose the bar until you're down at least as low as 65%.

It is correct the class action unfortunatetly focused on the bars not the percent loss and nissan can modify the formula for calculating bars. Nissan only did the 5yr/60k mile degredation warranty to settle this lawsuit. If all 12 bars were equal that would make sense but as you point out the 4th bar goes out less than 65% remaining. Lets say it's 61% that means every 4 bars are 39% or 118% capacity? That doesn't add up. The firmware fix in late 2012 appears to be the culprit in changing the logic.

I have never used it but I will keep the option of filing in small claims court for a $5000 credit toward the new battery swap. At a minimum it would force Nissan to explain how less than 70% in under 4 years is not a warranty event. They would rather give me a new battery than answer that question.

I love my car but in 2011 when I preordered there was no expectation that these batteries would lose 30+% in 5 years. They listed the expectation of 80% capacity at 8 years/100k miles. No one is gtting close to that even in places like San Diego, CA.

If I have to file in small claims court then I will create a thread of my experience. I just want Nissan to reasonably back their product. I was expecting sone degredantion but this is a bit high and not even the worst case scenario.

I think it's safe to say that your concerns are shared by pretty much everybody in here, and I encourage you to fight Nissan over this as much as you can. Did you happen to have the prescience to opt-out of the class action? If so, you should have an easy time beating Nissan in small claims. If not, I don't know if that's the right venue, but might as well try. I know of one other person who fought Nissan through BBB arbitration and won himself a new pack, so you might want to try that route: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19880&start=130#p439072

In the meantime, we have some indication that it probably helps to take your car in and complain to Nissan about diminished range, even though we know they won't do anything about it, just so you have it documented that you brought the matter to Nissan's attention.

I need to research more why I am only show 1BL and 17 kWh at 100% but what is very clear is that I am in the same club but I haven't lost as much as others have. It's a lot like losing half your money to Bernie Madoff. It could have been worse but it doesn't give me a warm feeling either.

I have had 4 battery tests since 2012. I will organize ll my docs in preparation.

I have a couple ways to play this. I still have the insert from Jan 2012 promising rediculous range. BBB arbitration in a couple years might be best. I have the literature promising 8 yr 100k miles so why did I have to buy a new battery? Why would anyone have to completely replace something under warranty. That will eliminate conflicts with the class action suit.

I did not opt but frankly it was because I have been dealing with the death of my parents and moving. Im not sure I ever saw that letter. That class action was so far in Nissan's favor I hope Nissan gave the Plaintiff's attorneys a bonus.

I need to research more why I am only show 1BL and 17 kWh at 100% but what is very clear is that I am in the same club but I haven't lost as much as others have. It's a lot like losing half your money to Bernie Madoff. It could have been worse but it doesn't give me a warm feeling either.

I have had 4 battery tests since 2012. I will organize ll my docs in preparation.

I have a couple ways to play this. I still have the insert from Jan 2012 promising rediculous range. BBB arbitration in a couple years might be best. I have the literature promising 8 yr 100k miles so why did I have to buy a new battery? Why would anyone have to completely replace something under warranty. That will eliminate conflicts with the class action suit.

I did not opt but frankly it was because I have been dealing with the death of my parents and moving. Im not sure I ever saw that letter. That class action was so far in Nissan's favor I hope Nissan gave the Plaintiff's attorneys a bonus.