Does my Leaf have a serious issue? Numbers not adding up

sscherer2030 · Jun 9, 2015

We have had our Leaf for about a week but have been driving EV only for many years now so I understand how to drive efficiently.

Our Leaf reads 12 capacity bars and has about 28K miles on it, its an '12 SL model.

The issue; it seems to me that the vehicles range deteriorates faster than the capacity, miles driven and efficiency values (in the car not carwings) would suggest.

Today I did a long drive to verify/test this out.

I drove without A/C on, running fan only, windows rolled up, tires inflated to 44psi, mostly highway with cruise set to 60-63mph, this morning was a modest 90F here in Phoenix and here are the results;

After driving 49 miles my battery level was run down to only 2 bars remaining and predicted range of 19 miles, I was nearly 40 miles from home so opted to do a Chademo (which I did not think I would need to do); Efficiency according to vehicle was 4.4 mi/kwh.

Upon plugging into station it reported 36% charge on the Leaf battery, at unplug it said 80%, so I added 44% charge back to it.

After the QC Eco-mode range was predicted at 65 miles, I drove 38 miles to home and range was down to 13 miles predicted. Efficiency of this leg of trip was reported at 4.6 mi/kwh.

Doing some calculations:
49 miles divided by 4.4 mi/kwh suggests I used 11.14 kwh, according to the Chademo I had 36% remaining so 64%=11.14kwh, suggesting battery capacity of 100% is ONLY 17.41kwh, assuming original "usable" capacity of 21.3kwh this is only 81.7% of original (NOT >85% as 12 bars on capacity meter would suggest)

The second leg of the trip seems super strange to me as well, 80% starting SOC, ending SOC @ 2 bars should be around 22-29% (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

, so I used 51-58% to go 38 miles @ 4.6 mi/kwh... 38 mi divided by 4.6 mi/kwh yields 8.26 kwh which divided by 51-58% yields only 16.20kwh TO 14.24kwh of usable capacity, or a remaining usable capacity of only 67-76%...

I am borrowing a scangauge and Leafspy from a friend tomorrow to see what the computer thinks its capacity is but these numbers just don't seem to add up accurately to me and I don't know what would be the cause of that, any suggestions?

91040 · Jun 9, 2015

The CHAdeMO read out never seems to agree with car's numbers. You will get more reliable data with LeafSpy.

As I remember, the first capacity bar drops when a 100% charge is around 17kWhs, i.e. the 80% charge when new.

desiv · Jun 9, 2015

If you are just using the G-o-M (Guess O Meter) in the dash to tell you about how many miles you have, it's all nebulous.
Those numbers aren't real.

But, driving at 60 MPH, you get to 2 bars left after about 50 miles.
2 bars left (there's a lot of room in those 2 bars) could be almost 20 more miles of range depending.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; <--Take a look at this range chart..
That would be about 70 miles total, which is probably about right for a 60+ MPH trip, depending on road conditions, etc..

So all in all, I don't see anything too disconcerting...

I'd recommend getting Leaf Spy to see what your actual percentage is..
It lets you get MUCH more comfortable with LBW and VLBW so you know what your actual range will be..

desiv

KillaWhat · Jun 9, 2015

sscherer2030 said:
Our Leaf reads 12 capacity bars and has about 28K miles on it, its an '12 SL model.

I drove without A/C on, running fan only, windows rolled up, tires inflated to 44psi, mostly highway with cruise set to 60-63mph, this morning was a modest 90F here in Phoenix and here are the results;

I have the same car, with about the same mileage, so I feel pretty confident wading in here.

Unless the climate control has been modded, you were probably NOT driving fan only.
Pull up the usage gauges next time, and I'll bet your climate control read out show about 1.5 kW draw.
(give it a couple minutes)
It was one of the major complaints about the MY 11/12 cars.
There are threads on here about how to mod that for "fan only".

As others have said, the GOM is BS. It's predictive, on drugs, and keeps a fair #of GID's up it's sleeve.
A GID-o-meter of some type will change your driving and show you the reality of that pack.

Even though you have "12 Bars" I'd be willing to bet your full charge pack tops out at more like 85% to 88%, maybe less if somebody reset everything before they sold it.

My full charge pack is 81% now.

So, given what you have said and my experience, at those speeds, this all sounds about right.
You just need to see some real CAN-based measured numbers.

Try it at a continuous 35mph on flat ground.
BIG difference not pushing all that air.

Let me know what the status of your fully charged pack is if you get a look at it, and tell me how close I was

William

ishiyakazuo · Jun 9, 2015

sscherer2030 said:
We have had our Leaf for about a week but have been driving EV only for many years now so I understand how to drive efficiently.

Our Leaf reads 12 capacity bars and has about 28K miles on it, its an '12 SL model.

The issue; it seems to me that the vehicles range deteriorates faster than the capacity, miles driven and efficiency values (in the car not carwings) would suggest.

Today I did a long drive to verify/test this out.

I drove without A/C on, running fan only, windows rolled up, tires inflated to 44psi, mostly highway with cruise set to 60-63mph, this morning was a modest 90F here in Phoenix and here are the results;

After driving 49 miles my battery level was run down to only 2 bars remaining and predicted range of 19 miles, I was nearly 40 miles from home so opted to do a Chademo (which I did not think I would need to do); Efficiency according to vehicle was 4.4 mi/kwh.

Upon plugging into station it reported 36% charge on the Leaf battery, at unplug it said 80%, so I added 44% charge back to it.

After the QC Eco-mode range was predicted at 65 miles, I drove 38 miles to home and range was down to 13 miles predicted. Efficiency of this leg of trip was reported at 4.6 mi/kwh.

Doing some calculations:
49 miles divided by 4.4 mi/kwh suggests I used 11.14 kwh, according to the Chademo I had 36% remaining so 64%=11.14kwh, suggesting battery capacity of 100% is ONLY 17.41kwh, assuming original "usable" capacity of 21.3kwh this is only 81.7% of original (NOT >85% as 12 bars on capacity meter would suggest)

The second leg of the trip seems super strange to me as well, 80% starting SOC, ending SOC @ 2 bars should be around 22-29% (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false, so I used 51-58% to go 38 miles @ 4.6 mi/kwh... 38 mi divided by 4.6 mi/kwh yields 8.26 kwh which divided by 51-58% yields only 16.20kwh TO 14.24kwh of usable capacity, or a remaining usable capacity of only 67-76%...

I am borrowing a scangauge and Leafspy from a friend tomorrow to see what the computer thinks its capacity is but these numbers just don't seem to add up accurately to me and I don't know what would be the cause of that, any suggestions?

That all looks totally reasonable to me. On my car with 86% remaining, I drive 40 miles at similar speeds, and often end up with 3-4 charge bars remaining. I tend to estimate about 5 miles per charge bar generally at 60mph, and that almost always has held true. 50 miles at 60mph would then mean 10 capacity bars down.

sscherer2030 · Jun 10, 2015

KillaWhat said:
sscherer2030 said:

Our Leaf reads 12 capacity bars and has about 28K miles on it, its an '12 SL model.

I drove without A/C on, running fan only, windows rolled up, tires inflated to 44psi, mostly highway with cruise set to 60-63mph, this morning was a modest 90F here in Phoenix and here are the results;

Click to expand...

I have the same car, with about the same mileage, so I feel pretty confident wading in here.

Unless the climate control has been modded, you were probably NOT driving fan only.
Pull up the usage gauges next time, and I'll bet your climate control read out show about 1.5 kW draw.
(give it a couple minutes)

It was one of the major complaints about the MY 11/12 cars.
There are threads on here about how to mod that for "fan only".

As others have said, the GOM is BS. It's predictive, on drugs, and keeps a fair #of GID's up it's sleeve.
A GID-o-meter of some type will change your driving and show you the reality of that pack.

Even though you have "12 Bars" I'd be willing to bet your full charge pack tops out at more like 85% to 88%, maybe less if somebody reset everything before they sold it.

My full charge pack is 81% now.

So, given what you have said and my experience, at those speeds, this all sounds about right.
You just need to see some real CAN-based measured numbers.

Try it at a continuous 35mph on flat ground.
BIG difference not pushing all that air.

Let me know what the status of your fully charged pack is if you get a look at it, and tell me how close I was

William

In the energy usage menu I had climate control at 0kw the entire time.

How does someone "reset everything" before selling it? I bought from Nissan.

We will get the spy tomorrow to check into the specifics, going to do a range test with it as well to see if starting and ending kWh make sense with the mi/kWh readout too.

sscherer2030 · Jun 10, 2015

I guess I thought this vehicle would be capable of 80-100 miles if driven delicately, I have a 2009 Yaris which was converted to Electric back when new, it has 30k miles on it and a battery of about 29kwh and still lets us drive 75 miles at 60+mph even though the batteries are poorly managed (bms) and not climate controlled.

Maybe we just need to adjust to more non-highway driving, but we live in Phoenix and this city is designed for highway driving.

cwerdna · Jun 10, 2015

sscherer2030 said:
I guess I thought this vehicle would be capable of 80-100 miles if driven delicately, I have a 2009 Yaris which was converted to Electric back when new, it has 30k miles on it and a battery of about 29kwh and still lets us drive 75 miles at 60+mph even though the batteries are poorly managed (bms) and not climate controlled.

Maybe we just need to adjust to more non-highway driving, but we live in Phoenix and this city is designed for highway driving.

91040 said:
The CHAdeMO read out never seems to agree with car's numbers.

Yeah, it can: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7022" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011/long-term-road-test/2011-nissan-leaf-driving-it-to-the-bitter-end.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On my '13 the SoC % value on the dash display is usually the same as that on the CHAdeMO DC FC. If not, it's within 1%.

sscherer2030 said:
How does someone "reset everything" before selling it? I bought from Nissan.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/11/buyers-beware-this-is-must-read.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/12/update-saga-of-vin-222-resolved.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No, almost certainly you bought it from a Nissan dealer, not Nissan, the company. That dealer or someone beforehand could've reset the BMS.

And yes, screw the GOM. A new Leaf w/new battery only has about ~21 kWh usable. Yours has degraded at least somewhat, even in the mildest of climates. You'd better hope you can get a warranty replacement thanks to the 5 year/60K capacity (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

because your battery will be cooked there and degrade very rapidly.

Hopefully this didn't happen to your car: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=17045" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

GerryAZ · Jun 10, 2015

The 2011 and 2012s typically show significantly higher SOC on the QC display than actual battery charge level (especially Blink QCs which are common in Phoenix). This means you need to set the target charge level on a Blink QC to at least 10% or 20% higher than the actual charge level you need (I suggest 20% higher) and you cannot use the numbers to accurately estimate the charge energy received. I highly recommend the LEAF Spy Pro application with suitable OBDII port interface to monitor the battery and other things like tire pressure. A significant amount of the useable battery charge is hidden below low battery warning (LBW) and very low battery warning (VLBW). Your numbers will look much better to you once you understand there are about 4 kWh still available at LBW with a bit less than 2 kWh at VLBW. The P3227 software update improves the accuracy of the battery information on the dash so you might want to confirm that update has been done on you car.

Gerry

desiv · Jun 10, 2015

sscherer2030 said:
I guess I thought this vehicle would be capable of 80-100 miles if driven delicately

That is possible on a newer Leaf, but 60+ MPH isn't in that "driven delicately" description. ;-)
To get that range, you're talking sub-40MPH..
There are people that get that, but they are almost all in-town drivers, not highway...

sscherer2030 said:
I have a 2009 Yaris which was converted to Electric back when new, it has 30k miles on it and a battery of about 29kwh and still lets us drive 75 miles at 60+mph even though the batteries are poorly managed (bms) and not climate controlled.

Nice conversion. That's quite a bit more kwh than the Leaf. The Leaf has more in the 22kwh usable range when new.

sscherer2030 said:
Maybe we just need to adjust to more non-highway driving, but we live in Phoenix and this city is designed for highway driving.

That would help, but you also really need to get Leaf Spy to get more used to how "low" you can go. If you're routinely leaving 20% or so of your range because you don't want to go too low, that's a LOT.. ;-)

desiv

lorenfb · Jun 10, 2015

sscherer2030 said:
We will get the spy tomorrow to check into the specifics, going to do a range test with it as well to see if starting and ending kWh make sense with the mi/kWh readout too.

The LeafSpy will provide the 'acid test', i.e. what's the real Ahr at 100% SOC (your 12 bars).
Any Leaf pre-purchase review should include a LeafSpy evaluation. Most likely your Ahr
are in the low 50s at 100% SOC. As posted by others, speeds in excess of 55-60 really reduce
the range on the Leaf, i.e. remember that the drag loss factor is affected by the square of your speed.

sscherer2030 · Jun 10, 2015

So, used the LeafSpy software today as well as an OBDII scangauge; revealed 81.1% SOC on scangauge, LeafSpy says 91.1% SOC (and 81.1% GIDs); LeafSpy also says 228 GIDs and 18.2kwh remain.

AHr = 56.10, Hlth = 71.64% (not sure what that is a measurement of?)

Do these numbers seem to make sense?

18.2kwh remaining, assuming the original capacity was 21.3kwh (and assuming this is ONLY talking about usable capacity, not the 24kwh) is 85.4%, which means it hasn't hit that "first bar of capacity" threshold yet, but is right there, which makes sense...

Sounds like I need to do a drive with LeafSpy so I can see what the "real empty" looks like, though I don't actually want to drive it to empty, but good to be aware of what our limits are....

RegGuheert · Jun 10, 2015

sscherer2030 said:
So, used the LeafSpy software today as well as an OBDII scangauge; revealed 81.1% SOC on scangauge, LeafSpy says 91.1% SOC (and 81.1% GIDs); LeafSpy also says 228 GIDs and 18.2kwh remain.

AHr = 56.10, Hlth = 71.64% (not sure what that is a measurement of?)

Do these numbers seem to make sense?

Yes. My conclusion is that either your car is NOT from the Phoenix area OR the BMS has been reset. Otherwise, you would likely not still have 12 capacity bars remaining.

IF the BMS has been reset, you should lose your first capacity bar pretty soon and perhaps also should lose a second or even a third not long afterwards.

My guess, based on your driving results, is that the car *actually* has the capacity it is reporting, but you will know soon enough if the AHr reading stays in the 50s for the rest of this summer.

In any case, my guess is your car will qualify for a new battery before five years or 60,000 miles have passed.

KillaWhat · Jun 10, 2015

sscherer2030 said:
So, used the LeafSpy software today as well as an OBDII scangauge; revealed 81.1% SOC on scangauge, LeafSpy says 91.1% SOC (and 81.1% GIDs); LeafSpy also says 228 GIDs and 18.2kwh remain.

AHr = 56.10, Hlth = 71.64% (not sure what that is a measurement of?)

Do these numbers seem to make sense?

I just went and pulled my numbers, and at just under 24,500 miles I'm 82% 233 GID, and I lost my first bar about 2 months ago.

So, based on your numbers, I suspect your BMS was reset, and you will see a bar drop as soon as it stabilizes.

Unlike others have said, I would not expect to start seeing bars dropping like flies.

It will Be a while before you lose bar 2 I suspect.

You might make the 4 bar drop before you pass out of warranty only because the car is now in Phoenix.

Good luck and enjoy the car

mwalsh · Jun 10, 2015

Woah! Let's not get carried away. He's got one LEAFSpy reading. We need more data before we start throwing around the "R" word. It's perfectly reasonable for a car with 56AHr to still have 12 bars. According to my estimations and the data on hand, normal loss of the 12th bar would take place at between 54AHr and 55.5AHr.

I don't think that a BMS reset even manipulates the AHr reading of a car, so he would already be showing a reading under the 12th bar threshold in LEAFspy if that were to be the case. So far as we know (or have seen to date at least), only a P3227 software update results in a higher AHr reading than should be there.

Now a BMS reset in conjunction with a P3227 update...that's a whole different kettle of fish.

KillaWhat · Jun 10, 2015

I hear what you are saying and respect that, however, .....

Purchased from an out of State Nissan dealer I suspect that it had the software update done as a matter of course, and before they sold it they did a reset on exit from consult which reset the BMS.

Perhaps not trying to be deceptive, but letting a "true" reading reveal itself.
(going to take a bit of time though)

I guess we will see, but if I were a betting man, I'd put $5 down on this one.

mwalsh · Jun 10, 2015

OP...did the car come with any service paperwork that would indicate what updates were done and when? That would be quite helpful for those of us who are trying to guess where you're at.

Sondy132001 · Jun 10, 2015

desiv said:
sscherer2030 said:

I guess I thought this vehicle would be capable of 80-100 miles if driven delicately

Click to expand...

That is possible on a newer Leaf, but 60+ MPH isn't in that "driven delicately" description. ;-)
To get that range, you're talking sub-40MPH..
There are people that get that, but they are almost all in-town drivers, not highway...

The only way I get that in Southern California is driving in traffic, I wanted to be in the Carpool/HOV Lane so bad but everyone here on the 405 is doing 75mph or more, so you suck up all the power getting home =(

Click to expand...

sscherer2030 said:

I have a 2009 Yaris which was converted to Electric back when new, it has 30k miles on it and a battery of about 29kwh and still lets us drive 75 miles at 60+mph even though the batteries are poorly managed (bms) and not climate controlled.

Click to expand...

Nice conversion. That's quite a bit more kwh than the Leaf. The Leaf has more in the 22kwh usable range when new.

sscherer2030 said:

Maybe we just need to adjust to more non-highway driving, but we live in Phoenix and this city is designed for highway driving.

Click to expand...

That would help, but you also really need to get Leaf Spy to get more used to how "low" you can go. If you're routinely leaving 20% or so of your range because you don't want to go too low, that's a LOT.. ;-)

desiv

Reddy · Jun 11, 2015

desiv said:
sscherer2030 said:

I guess I thought this vehicle would be capable of 80-100 miles if driven delicately

Click to expand...

That is possible on a newer Leaf, but 60+ MPH isn't in that "driven delicately" description. ;-)
To get that range, you're talking sub-40MPH..
There are people that get that, but they are almost all in-town drivers, not highway...

Yes, you can still get 80 mi if you really try, but probably not 100 mi unless you're a dedicated hypermiler. Here's a link suggesting a 75 mi EPA range when NEW (again EPA range is a mix of driving, mostly in town, not all Freeway). If you're down to 80-85%, then the range is closer to 60-65 mi.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/2011-nissan-leaf-epa-ratings-released/

As for the possibility of a reset BMS, it is also possible that you've received a new battery under warranty and the 2nd one is now degraded to around 85%, and you will be losing that 12th bar soon. In any case, you've got the "A" team giving you some good advice.

cwerdna · Jun 12, 2015

mwalsh said:
OP...did the car come with any service paperwork that would indicate what updates were done and when? That would be quite helpful for those of us who are trying to guess where you're at.

Yep... good question.

And for the latter, this is why I always ask this:
Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

Does my Leaf have a serious issue? Numbers not adding up

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Similar threads

Join the conversation!

Join today and get all the highlights of this community direct to your inbox. It's FREE!