Price for Strictly Charging at Public Charging Stations?

I have no place to charge a Nissan Leaf other than at public charging stations. I am considering if I should buy a used 2013 model (For the ability to charge at 6.6kw which I believe is an option in that year). I currently own a 2004 Chevrolet Express 2500 Van. I get 12mpg combined and I am spending about $350/mo on gasoline (Los Angeles California about $4 per Gallon). I understand that charging your EV at home at night gives you a very cheap price to own your EV, but what if you can only charge at public charging stations? I do about 1200 miles per month. About how much would I be spending monthly if I used 'cheap' charging stations? Any help is greatly appreciated!

http://www.nrgevgo.com/los-angeles-basin/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has pricing. Blink is very expensive.

Try using http://www.plugshare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to find other stations around you and their relative pricing and reliability.

Yes. '13 Leaf SV and SL have 6 kW on-board charger. On '13 S, it's part of the "charge package".

Unless you have reliable, readily available and inexpensive/free charging available near home, where you work, or where you spend time often, I would really suggest you don't bother. It will get old, very fast. 1200 miles/month / 30 days/month = 40 miles/day, meaning you will practically need to charge daily.

Go look for a Prius instead... Toyota Sunnyvale (yeah yeah, wrong part of the state) is openly advertising in email to me new '15 Prius Two (base trim for consumers) for $19,688 (also up at http://www.toyotasunnyvale.com/specials/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. If you drive ~40 miles/day, you should have no trouble achieving at least 40-45 mpg, unless you drive like a speed demon or have lots of short trips.

NissanLeafCamper said:

I have no place to charge a Nissan Leaf other than at public charging stations. I am considering if I should buy a used 2013 model (For the ability to charge at 6.6kw which I believe is an option in that year). I currently own a 2004 Chevrolet Express 2500 Van. I get 12mpg combined and I am spending about $350/mo on gasoline (Los Angeles California about $4 per Gallon). I understand that charging your EV at home at night gives you a very cheap price to own your EV, but what if you can only charge at public charging stations? I do about 1200 miles per month. About how much would I be spending monthly if I used 'cheap' charging stations? Any help is greatly appreciated!

Click to expand...

Be sure it has the quick charge package if you purchase an S model, otherwise it will have the 3.3kW onboard charger instead. You are driving about 40 miles a day from the quick math. You will have to recharge probably every 2 to 3 days depending on how much you drive unless you do a lot of driving on single days and other days the vehicle just sits idle all day.

If by cheap, you mean free, I know that Kohl still gives 4 hours of free charging (more than enough to charge your vehicle to full capacity). Whole foods still has free charging last I checked. If any of those are nearby, consider them free public charging. Otherwise, as mentioned, check plugshare.com to get a good map of what chargers that are around you and read the reviews to see if they are in good working order. Might spend some time to go check for yourself to make sure they are functioning (not broken, locked up screen, etc.)

Next as far as cost, what charge companies are around? eVgo, Blink, etc? They usually have the prices on the website to give you an idea of how much you would pay. eVgo charges $9.95 for 30 minutes in my area, so a full charge cost nearly $10. Blink though only charges half for the same service, get a full charge for about $4.95 for the same 30 minutes. Your area may vary of course.

Are you doing highway/interstate driving (+70 mph) or more city driving (50+ mph)?

"If I were ye", I would strongly consider a 2 or 3-year 15,000 mile-per-year lease of a 2015, which would entitle you to be part of Nissan's 2-year "No Charge To Charge" program. Using the card allows 30 minutes of free charging at most quick chargers, and I know there are many in Los Angeles. (It also allows free level 2 charging, but you may not even need them!) I've used the card a LOT "up here" and have charged very little at home, where I only have access to 110V. You'd save thousands of dollars on gas alone if you could swing it. See plugshare.com to see if there are DCQCs along your most-traveled routes.

Here's a short thread on LA becoming part of the program: Los Angeles now part of "No Charge to Charge" program. Perhaps you can contact (pm) some of the contributers there if you have questions. Here's NRG's description of it.

cwerdna said:

http://www.nrgevgo.com/los-angeles-basin/ has pricing. Blink is very expensive.

Try using http://www.plugshare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to find other stations around you and their relative pricing and reliability.

Yes. '13 Leaf SV and SL have 6 kW on-board charger. On '13 S, it's part of the "charge package".

Unless you have reliable, readily available and inexpensive/free charging available near home, where you work, or where you spend time often, I would really suggest you don't bother. It will get old, very fast. 1200 miles/month / 30 days/month = 40 miles/day, meaning you will practically need to charge daily.

Go look for a Prius instead... Toyota Sunnyvale (yeah yeah, wrong part of the state) is openly advertising in email to me new '15 Prius Two (base trim for consumers) for $19,688 (also up at http://www.toyotasunnyvale.com/specials/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. If you drive ~40 miles/day, you should have no trouble achieving at least 40-45 mpg, unless you drive like a speed demon or have lots of short trips.

Click to expand...

I went to nrgevgo and looked up their Lv2 charging stations. I basically travel between Burbank, Pasadena, and Rosemead. The only station I see for me would be the one at Fresh & Easy in Rosemead (9026 E. Valley Blvd, Rosemead, CA, 91770). Basically 2 or so long blocks away from the place I go to on Mon, Wed, Thu, Fri, and Sat. The other 2 days I am at burbank (Tue, & Sun). I have never bought anything at that store though I have seen it when I driive by. I wonder what their rules are for using that charging station. Do you have to buy something from there or can you just drive up and charge?

Details:

PlugScore 10.0
Ports
EV Plug (J1772), 2 CHAdeMO DCFCs, SAE Combo DCFC
Stations
EVgoAvailable CHAdeMO DCFC E
VgoAvailable SAE Combo DCFC, CHAdeMO DCFC
EVgoAvailable EV Plug (J1772)
Address
9026 East Valley Boulevard Rosemead, California 91770
Phone
877-455-3833
Cost
NRG eVgo network fees
Hours
24/7
Description
The EVgo chargers are located at the southwest corner of the building. Map marker placement is precise.

Interestingly after going to plugshare I found a free charging station down south from my usual rosemead visiting location and the charging port is free. I have been to that area before. There is a del taco and starbucks there which I visit sometimes. Just never seen the charging port. I can easily charge there when I am in rosemead!

I was thinking about buying a Prius, but wanted to get the option that would cost me less at the pump. With the 6.6kw charger it should take about 3 hours for the leaf to charge to 80%? Is that from almost empty? 5%? or a higher %? Through summer I should have no problem at all spending 3 hours at the nrgevgo charging station. Not so sure once fall comes around, but I should at least be able to do 2 hours then. So the plan from nrgevgo is 6 dollars every month and $1 per hour of charging? That would be... 3 dollars a day if the leaf can give me 40 miles on a full (80%?) charge? It should come out to $90 usd a month plus the monthly fee so $96. That is a nicer number than $350/mo! Possibly reduced if I can use the free changing stations.


My driving normally involves a long trip in the freeway (About 20 miles) then small short trips in town (Filling up to 20 miles worth of driving sometimes, but I will say more about 15 miles). I read that the ideal speed for EVs is actually the slower the better, and that due to the regenerative breaking city driving is better. I tend to drive slow and baby the car as much as I can. 55 in the fwy when possible. I won't be able to afford a new car worth 20k. My goal is to tighen up my belt and gather about 13k for a used leaf before the end of this year . That will be a feat in itself!

knightmb said:

Be sure it has the quick charge package if you purchase an S model, otherwise it will have the 3.3kW onboard charger instead. You are driving about 40 miles a day from the quick math. You will have to recharge probably every 2 to 3 days depending on how much you drive unless you do a lot of driving on single days and other days the vehicle just sits idle all day.

If by cheap, you mean free, I know that Kohl still gives 4 hours of free charging (more than enough to charge your vehicle to full capacity). Whole foods still has free charging last I checked. If any of those are nearby, consider them free public charging. Otherwise, as mentioned, check plugshare.com to get a good map of what chargers that are around you and read the reviews to see if they are in good working order. Might spend some time to go check for yourself to make sure they are functioning (not broken, locked up screen, etc.)

Next as far as cost, what charge companies are around? eVgo, Blink, etc? They usually have the prices on the website to give you an idea of how much you would pay. eVgo charges $9.95 for 30 minutes in my area, so a full charge cost nearly $10. Blink though only charges half for the same service, get a full charge for about $4.95 for the same 30 minutes. Your area may vary of course.

Are you doing highway/interstate driving (+70 mph) or more city driving (50+ mph)?

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Thank you for letting me know. The S model is cheaper so that could make it easier for me to buy. What kind of features will I miss from getting the S instead of a higher trim?

I drive at the most 40 miles on a single day. If I will only need to charge every 2-3 days or less, if my driving lowers, I can easily manage that. My mind has been set on charging every single day, so if it comes down to every 2-3 days I will be extremely happy. I use the car every single day though.

Thank you if I can find free chargers that will be extremely helpful. I did find one in plugshare near where I usually am. I will keep in mind whole foods and kohls if they also offer that.

When I get on the FWY I try to do 55mph when possible on my gasoline engine. In the city I tend to drive slow for safety's sake and baby my car.

mbender said:

"If I were ye", I would strongly consider a 2 or 3-year 15,000 mile-per-year lease of a 2015, which would entitle you to be part of Nissan's 2-year "No Charge To Charge" program. Using the card allows 30 minutes of free charging at most quick chargers, and I know there are many in Los Angeles. (It also allows free level 2 charging, but you may not even need them!) I've used the card a LOT "up here" and have charged very little at home, where I only have access to 110V. You'd save thousands of dollars on gas alone if you could swing it. See plugshare.com to see if there are DCQCs along your most-traveled routes.

Here's a short thread on LA becoming part of the program: Los Angeles now part of "No Charge to Charge" program. Perhaps you can contact (pm) some of the contributers there if you have questions. Here's NRG's description of it.

Click to expand...

That sounds great the only problem is that I don't have a place to garage my leaf so it will seat out in the streets sadly. I would not mind sleeping in it to protect it but I doubt someone with ill will might care much about someone inside their car . I understand that if I buy it at the end of the lease then it won't matter, but my ultimate goal is to buy the e-nv200 that will hopefully come to the USA in no more than 3 years. That is the van I want to own so I thought a used leaf would be good for now to get used to the EV life style.

Is it still okay to pick up a lease if the car will seat out in the streets? How easy will it be to 'return it' once the lease is over? Do lease cars have inspection dates that you have to take it in so see if no major damage has been done?

If you get a lease can you still qualify for california's, I think, 2.5k rebate? I think the federal 7.5k is not an option, but what about the california rebate? If I could get the rebate that would be about 70/mo that could help out with paying the lease. Though I think the rebate is taxable? If so it will be less than that.

A quick google search tells me that people want about 200$ for a 2015 Nissan leaf (But leasing doesn't start till oct/sept?). 2.5k-10% (taxes) is 2250 / 36 = 62-200= 138. that is if you can qualify for the california rebate with a lease? 138*36=4968. So about 5 grand with the full 3 year lease paid? Makes me wonder if a 2013 nissan leaf (Model S?) would depreciate 5k in 3 years? If i were to charge it strictly at the charging stations that would be about 100$ a month which is about half the price of the lease where I could be benefiting from the free charging program though it seems the program will only last 2 years instead of 3? I'm also not taking into consideration possible repairs? Within 3 years what kind of repairs would you see in a nissan leaf? Granted the 2013 will already be 2 years older than the 2015 which will likely be covered under warranty.... From what I saw I could only take advantage of one nrgevgo charging station though one is more than enough i presume specially with that dc charger.

The charging stations I see after going to plugshare for a while are:

evgo one in rosemead and another in old town pasadena
chargepoint there were a lot of these
volta Pasadena
eaton? Pasadena
blink east L.A.

and some other random ones with no names some being wall outlets.

NissanLeafCamper said:

[...]

That sounds great the only problem is that I don't have a place to garage my leaf so it will seat out in the streets sadly. I would not mind sleeping in it to protect it but I doubt someone with ill will might care much about someone inside their car . I understand that if I buy it at the end of the lease then it won't matter, but my ultimate goal is to buy the e-nv200 that will hopefully come to the USA in no more than 3 years. That is the van I want to own so I thought a used leaf would be good for now to get used to the EV life style.

Is it still okay to pick up a lease if the car will seat out in the streets? How easy will it be to 'return it' once the lease is over? Do lease cars have inspection dates that you have to take it in so see if no major damage has been done?

If you get a lease can you still qualify for california's, I think, 2.5k rebate? I think the federal 7.5k is not an option, but what about the california rebate? If I could get the rebate that would be about 70/mo that could help out with paying the lease. Though I think the rebate is taxable? If so it will be less than that.

A quick google search tells me that people want about 200$ for a 2015 Nissan leaf (But leasing doesn't start till oct/sept?). 2.5k-10% (taxes) is 2250 / 36 = 62-200= 138. that is if you can qualify for the california rebate with a lease? 138*36=4968. So about 5 grand with the full 3 year lease paid? Makes me wonder if a 2013 nissan leaf (Model S?) would depreciate 5k in 3 years? If i were to charge it strictly at the charging stations that would be about 100$ a month which is about half the price of the lease where I could be benefiting from the free charging program though it seems the program will only last 2 years instead of 3? I'm also not taking into consideration possible repairs? Within 3 years what kind of repairs would you see in a nissan leaf? Granted the 2013 will already be 2 years older than the 2015 which will likely be covered under warranty.... From what I saw I could only take advantage of one nrgevgo charging station though one is more than enough i presume specially with that dc charger.

The charging stations I see after going to plugshare for a while are:

evgo one in rosemead and another in old town pasadena
chargepoint there were a lot of these
volta Pasadena
eaton? Pasadena
blink east L.A.

and some other random ones with no names some being wall outlets.

Click to expand...

You have a bunch of research to do and much can be done right here in the forum, but I'll get you started...

• The $7,500 federal tax credit is worked into the lease, which is why payments are as low as they are. If you buy (new), you have to 1.) have a federal tax liability of at least $7,500 to get the full value and 2.) wait until next year's tax season to get it. But not with a lease!
  
  
• The $2,500 CA rebate comes within 2-3 months and only applies to 3 (or more) year leases.
  • Side note: between the two, I was able to lease my S for roughly $200/month with effectively no down payment (it was $2,500, which I got back from the CVRP).
  
  
• I don't park on the street, but I park "ungaraged" and it hasn't been a problem. But if it's a dangerous neighborhood/street, it would be with any car, no?
  
  
• By shopping around, you should be able to find reasonable insurance.
  
  
• At the end of three years, the e-NV200 and many other options should be available to you.
  
  
• You only need an inspection for "excessive wear" in the weeks before the end of the lease. Minor dings and nicks are considered normal, and if you plan to lease or buy again from Nissan (perhaps the van), $500 of excessive wear might be waived.
  
  
• From what I can tell from plugshare, in addition to the DCQC (480V DC quick charger) in Rosemead, you should be able to use the one at Glendale Nissan (especially if you lease from them, but most likely even if not) and apparently LADPW offers free quick charging at its "Artisian Center" on Artesian street (near the 5 & 110). Moreover, additional options are bound to appear in the coming 2-3 years.

Did I forget anything? If so, be sure to research here more and ask questions. I still feel a lease would work out well, unless street parking is as iffy/dangerous as you sort of make it sound. Oh, the S does not include navigation, a big camera screen, LED highbeams I think and maybe one other thing from the SV (people here may chime in). Starting in 2015 however, it DOES include cruise control.

NissanLeafCamper said:

Thank you for letting me know. The S model is cheaper so that could make it easier for me to buy. What kind of features will I miss from getting the S instead of a higher trim?

I drive at the most 40 miles on a single day. If I will only need to charge every 2-3 days or less, if my driving lowers, I can easily manage that. My mind has been set on charging every single day, so if it comes down to every 2-3 days I will be extremely happy. I use the car every single day though.

Thank you if I can find free chargers that will be extremely helpful. I did find one in plugshare near where I usually am. I will keep in mind whole foods and kohls if they also offer that.

When I get on the FWY I try to do 55mph when possible on my gasoline engine. In the city I tend to drive slow for safety's sake and baby my car.

Click to expand...

You are in luck, I actually have both (S and SV loaded 2013 model)

Here are the main differences, the S comes with the standard digital radio (am/fm), bluetooth phone only (no audio stream from phone), USB mp3 player (you can stick a flash drive with mp3 music in and play through the stereo), Aux input port for stereo. The S model comes with heated seats, both front and rear seats. No cruise control unfortunately. No backup camera. No GPS navigation system. No screen menu configuration to monitor power usage or adjust car settings, etc. All of the car settings are done from the dash via the menu buttons. The S model uses resistive heating (think of an electric eye on a stove, raw power to produce heat for winter time). The AC works great though. The S model charge timer and environment timer are all set from the dash (rather manually with the buttons, not as nice as the menu system in the SV, but functional). The S model does not have the additional B mode for regen/braking. The S model has two modes, D mode (regular drive mode) and Eco mode (which scales down acceleration power and ramps up regen braking to maximize range). You aren't loosing anything by missing the B mode except the convenience of being able to separate your power band for acceleration and your amount of regen for braking.

The S model is about as basic as you can get for getting into a Leaf. The added convenience of the SV is nice compared to the S but at the end of the day, they go the same distance and drive the same for me. If you are looking for comfortable point A to point B transportation, the S model fills that just fine. If you want a nice sound system, more buttons on the steering wheel for cruise control, a touch screen with lots of menus and GPS to play with, Eco mode steering button (vs shifter), and better energy efficient winter time heating (the SV uses a heatpump to save power) then that is what you get for the higher up trim models.

One of the most important things is to not let the range meter intimidate you. It's just pulling a guess on range based on recent driving conditions, so if you are driving up the side of a steep incline for a few miles, the range meter seems intimidating. The best thing about the 2013 models and later is that you can menu to the battery charge percentage and just use the trip mileage meter to mentally gauge how much range you have left. Both of my Leaf(s) are a couple of years old, but in city driving, I still get nearly 1 mile for every 1 percent of battery charge so you have to shift you mind from the days of driving the gas car where you just keep adding fuel to the mental state of driving an electric car because traffic can be minimized in your mental equation.

For example, today I drove nearly 110 miles in my leaf (made a stop at the QC to add about 30 percent to my battery charge). I had to visit 3 neighboring cities, some separated by 30 miles, others by 10 miles. Knowing where I was going, how far each trip is, the battery charge level of my Leaf, I had no range anxiety. I encountered some major and unexpected construction traffic going to my first city stop. I sat in stop and go traffic for nearly an hour, overall it had very little effect on my range for the day. I still got home with 18% charge when finished for the day and while mentally that seems like white knuckle driving, when I finally came back to my home city, I knew I only had 3 miles left to reach home (where I can recharge) and even though the rush hour traffic made it take nearly 40 minutes just to crawl that 3 miles, I wasn't worried that I might not make it and be stuck in the middle of the road because the old way of "time" thinking for gas vehicles is minimized greatly for EV driving.

I don't know if you have test driven a Leaf yet, but I drive mine just like any other previous gas vehicle. Be an efficient driver and the Leaf will respect you in return. :mrgreen:

^^^
Agree w/virtually everything you said about the S, however on '15 S, they did add cruise control, B-mode and rearview camera now (apparently). See http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/the-2015-nissan-lineup-charting-the-changes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and Specs tab of http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2015-nissan-leaf-press-kit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. RearView Monitor is listed as standard on all 3 trims on the latter.

I mentioned cruise control becoming standard on the 2015 S. As for the camera, yes the S has one, but in my experience, it is next to worthless and one is better off not using it except in certain situations. It's got a tiny and dark screen compared to the one in even a 2012 SV, and lacks the predictive turning guide lines (green, I think?).

Like cwerdna mentioned at the beginning, I would personally dissuade anybody who does not have either charging at home, or reliable workplace charging, from purchasing or leasing any EV other than perhaps a Tesla (and only if you live or work near one of their public charging stations). Public charging can be an iffy experience and becomes more iffy if you rely on it as your only charging source. You never know when one of those charging stations is being used, or is broken, or worst of all is "ICEd" (blocked in by a non-plug-in car). Free public charging stations can often be occupied for hours at a time. If you rely on pay charging stations, you might end up spending as much as gas for a relatively economical ICEV.

As much as I love having my Leaf, for persons like the OP I would more recommend an economical ICEV or hybrid rather than a pure electric.

Free public charging stations can often be occupied for hours at a time.

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And planning on doing this only makes the problem worse. Another vote for a PHEV, although the only one I know of that is efficient without regular charging is the Prius PHEV, which may not be available now.

Why not a volt? With the second gen coming out there are good deals now on the first version if you want to lease and it will probably bring down values on used cars at GM lots.

It will do 38 miles electric and with careful driving I know of one volt owner that gets up to 60 in city driving (the only volt owner I know). If you are willing to spend the time at the public chargers you'll be near 100% electric but when you can't or the S hits the fan, or general bad luck of ICE'd/broken/occupied chargers gets in the way you won't be screwed.

If you regularly drive past the all electric range of the volt then I know the PIP is cheaper to run but since most of your driving will be under 40 miles/day I think you'll find the volt cheaper to run.

I would guess since you're a van guy that you think it's too small but you can put an inch and a quarter hitch on it and tow a small trailer or use a cargo rack and or get a roof rack. Roof racks will limit your range on the highway a lot. On my optima the hitch mounted cargo rack behind the car actually improved aero and fuel economy as it fills the turbulent space behind the car. It may not do that on a volt though since it's been optimized for aero more than the optima probably was.

The downside is that it charges slower than the leaf so you're looking at approx. daily charging of 3 hrs instead of every other day at 4hrs (assuming a 6.6kW charge for the leaf).

mbender said:

• The $7,500 federal tax credit is worked into the lease, which is why payments are as low as they are. If you buy (new), you have to 1.) have a federal tax liability of at least $7,500 to get the full value and 2.) wait until next year's tax season to get it. But not with a lease!
  
  
• The $2,500 CA rebate comes within 2-3 months and only applies to 3 (or more) year leases.
  • Side note: between the two, I was able to lease my S for roughly $200/month with effectively no down payment (it was $2,500, which I got back from the CVRP).

[*]I don't park on the street, but I park "ungaraged" and it hasn't been a problem. But if it's a dangerous neighborhood/street, it would be with any car, no?


[*]By shopping around, you should be able to find reasonable insurance.


[*]At the end of three years, the e-NV200 and many other options should be available to you.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the input. I see that you can qualify for the cali rebate on a lease.

I am still unsure on the lease though. 200$/mo for 36 months = 7200$ What kind of down payment would the dealer ask for? I read someone getting a 'great deal' at 150$/mo with a 2k down payment. 150*36=5400 +2k down = 7400? So what kind of down payment would you be asked for a 200/mo lease? Is it possible to take out the 2015 lease with no down payment AND low monthly payments of $200 or less?

Also, at 7,200$+++ in 3 years (Lease) I still wonder if a 2013 leaf will depreciate by 7,200$(or more) over the course of 3 years worth of ownership? Though if you add the california rebate 2.5k?-10% (if tax deductible) 2250-7200= 4950$. Still about 5k. Would a 2013 leaf depreciate by 5k in 3 years? I have actually never leased a car, or bought one from a dealer, before so I don't know what other 'additional costs' they will slap on top of the lease. With a google search these came up:

Down Payment (Which appears to be 2,000$ from a few posts I read)
Security Deposit (Not sure how much this one will be? I'd consider this one eaten by the dealer at the end of the lease.
Acquisition Fee/Due at lease signing (Not sure how this one will cost either.)
Disposition Fee (Paid at the end of the lease when you return the car. Google says it could be $350)
Sales Tax (I think this is only applied to the down payment? 10%?)
Documentation/“doc” fees/Administrative fee (Google says $250 to $600?)

Also "Dealers often have fees such as “bank fees” or “prep fees” or “delivery fees” that are completely bogus and should be negotiated out of any car purchase or lease deal."

Am I missing anything? What are the associated costs for these?

knightmb said:

You are in luck, I actually have both (S and SV loaded 2013 model)

One of the most important things is to not let the range meter intimidate you. It's just pulling a guess on range based on recent driving conditions, so if you are driving up the side of a steep incline for a few miles, the range meter seems intimidating. The best thing about the 2013 models and later is that you can menu to the battery charge percentage and just use the trip mileage meter to mentally gauge how much range you have left. Both of my Leaf(s) are a couple of years old, but in city driving, I still get nearly 1 mile for every 1 percent of battery charge so you have to shift you mind from the days of driving the gas car where you just keep adding fuel to the mental state of driving an electric car because traffic can be minimized in your mental equation.

For example, today I drove nearly 110 miles in my leaf (made a stop at the QC to add about 30 percent to my battery charge). I had to visit 3 neighboring cities, some separated by 30 miles, others by 10 miles. Knowing where I was going, how far each trip is, the battery charge level of my Leaf, I had no range anxiety. I encountered some major and unexpected construction traffic going to my first city stop. I sat in stop and go traffic for nearly an hour, overall it had very little effect on my range for the day. I still got home with 18% charge when finished for the day and while mentally that seems like white knuckle driving, when I finally came back to my home city, I knew I only had 3 miles left to reach home (where I can recharge) and even though the rush hour traffic made it take nearly 40 minutes just to crawl that 3 miles, I wasn't worried that I might not make it and be stuck in the middle of the road because the old way of "time" thinking for gas vehicles is minimized greatly for EV driving.

I don't know if you have test driven a Leaf yet, but I drive mine just like any other previous gas vehicle. Be an efficient driver and the Leaf will respect you in return. :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

Thank you for all of that previous info. I did test drive a leaf and I liked it very much. I also tested the spark ev which was really small and the I-Miev which was a little bigger, but still smaller than the leaf. I really want to try out the leaf, but I am unsure if I should lease of just buy a 2013 used . I tend to drive slowly so I am sure the electric range will be extended. I also wanted to play around with that B mode which kind of sounded like a lot of fun >_>. I actually don't own GPS, makes me think it only helps out once or twice till you learn the directions, but sometimes when I go to a new place I have to take out my laptop and do google maps. I'm not so sure on the cruise control though it could be a nice rest for the light foot that I have lol.

RonDawg said:

Like cwerdna mentioned at the beginning, I would personally dissuade anybody who does not have either charging at home, or reliable workplace charging, from purchasing or leasing any EV other than perhaps a Tesla (and only if you live or work near one of their public charging stations). Public charging can be an iffy experience and becomes more iffy if you rely on it as your only charging source. You never know when one of those charging stations is being used, or is broken, or worst of all is "ICEd" (blocked in by a non-plug-in car). Free public charging stations can often be occupied for hours at a time. If you rely on pay charging stations, you might end up spending as much as gas for a relatively economical ICEV.

As much as I love having my Leaf, for persons like the OP I would more recommend an economical ICEV or hybrid rather than a pure electric.

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Thank you for that info. I really would like to give the fully electric a try. My job has mostly me waiting for hours. Then I might have an hour to do a job somewhere then sit back out in the car. I could almost say I practically live in it. I have slept in it before. I could potentially wait until the ev clears or just get there really early, or even sleep close by on the street at night then top off in the early morning. It could work.... As I mentioned, most of the time I spend it 'waiting' for something to come up though I do have certain hours that are already 'pre-arranged' for me to do something for about an hour or two... then its all about waiting again. I wanted to try a prius, but the thought of saving money has been on my mind. I really could use the $ savings. I practically 'work' the whole day if you can call waiting around working lol.

One thing that could be a concern is paying as much as a hybrid with the ev if I use public charging stations. From the ergevgo the total per month for charging with them appears to be 100$. Would a prius have a cost of $100 a month if I do my usual 1200 miles? Unless I did the math wrong with the ev charging. I basically just made it so I charged everyday. someone mentioned I would only need to do it every 2-3 days. If so then it would be less than 100$.... Thoughts?

LeftieBiker said:

Free public charging stations can often be occupied for hours at a time.

Click to expand...

And planning on doing this only makes the problem worse. Another vote for a PHEV, although the only one I know of that is efficient without regular charging is the Prius PHEV, which may not be available now.

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Doing strickly free charging would be nice, but I don't mind paying for a charging station. the cheapest seems to be the ergnvgo at $1 per hour? The rest seemed to be at least 1.25. Anyway, if the ev costs me less than 350$ a month, which is what is what I spend in gas now with my van, then I think it still is worth it.

minispeed said:

Why not a volt? With the second gen coming out there are good deals now on the first version if you want to lease and it will probably bring down values on used cars at GM lots.

It will do 38 miles electric and with careful driving I know of one volt owner that gets up to 60 in city driving (the only volt owner I know). If you are willing to spend the time at the public chargers you'll be near 100% electric but when you can't or the S hits the fan, or general bad luck of ICE'd/broken/occupied chargers gets in the way you won't be screwed.

If you regularly drive past the all electric range of the volt then I know the PIP is cheaper to run but since most of your driving will be under 40 miles/day I think you'll find the volt cheaper to run.

I would guess since you're a van guy that you think it's too small but you can put an inch and a quarter hitch on it and tow a small trailer or use a cargo rack and or get a roof rack. Roof racks will limit your range on the highway a lot. On my optima the hitch mounted cargo rack behind the car actually improved aero and fuel economy as it fills the turbulent space behind the car. It may not do that on a volt though since it's been optimized for aero more than the optima probably was.

The downside is that it charges slower than the leaf so you're looking at approx. daily charging of 3 hrs instead of every other day at 4hrs (assuming a 6.6kW charge for the leaf).

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It would depend on how much it costs me. I want to save 13k to get a used 2013 leaf. 13k for me before the end of a year is a bit of a feat in itself. If it costs more than that then I can't afford it. I'd love a tesla but I can't afford it. Though what I really want is savings. So if the ev gives me the most savings at the pump then I'd rather get the EV. I would actually prefer the quicker charger though just incase I am caught in a awkward situation and can only charge for so much. The leaf would charge quicker with out having to kick in the ice because it didn't charge enough.

For leasing I am still not sure. Would you be able to help me figure out what all the leasing fees will total out for?

Down Payment (Which appears to be 2,000$ from a few posts I read)
Security Deposit (Not sure how much this one will be? I'd consider this one eaten by the dealer at the end of the lease.
Acquisition Fee/Due at lease signing (Not sure how this one will cost either.)
Disposition Fee (Paid at the end of the lease when you return the car. Google says it could be $350)
Sales Tax (I think this is only applied to the down payment? 10%?)
Documentation/“doc” fees/Administrative fee (Google says $250 to $600?)

Also "Dealers often have fees such as “bank fees” or “prep fees” or “delivery fees” that are completely bogus and should be negotiated out of any car purchase or lease deal."

Am I missing anything? What are the associated costs for these?

I still wonder if the total to lease for 3 years will be less or more than the depreciation of a 2013 leaf in the same time span .

NissanLeafCamper said:

Thank you for all of that previous info. I did test drive a leaf and I liked it very much. I also tested the spark ev which was really small and the I-Miev which was a little bigger, but still smaller than the leaf. I really want to try out the leaf, but I am unsure if I should lease of just buy a 2013 used . I tend to drive slowly so I am sure the electric range will be extended. I also wanted to play around with that B mode which kind of sounded like a lot of fun >_>. I actually don't own GPS, makes me think it only helps out once or twice till you learn the directions, but sometimes when I go to a new place I have to take out my laptop and do google maps. I'm not so sure on the cruise control though it could be a nice rest for the light foot that I have lol.

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No problem, glad to help. My leaf experience has been great. I've even driven the entire family out of state on a 600 mile one round trip in it. The required quick charge stops aren't really as bad as I thought, the family just relax or play games until we are off again. Taking a break every hour or two was a good way to relax in the vehicle. You can still run heat or AC while charging, go get some food (seems all the QC stops are next to restaurants :mrgreen: )

Think of B mode as being able to better customize your regen ability. With it off, your vehicle can regen up to 15kW of power while coasting and it has a "light" brake effect which is usual for highway/interstate driving. Using B mode, you can regen up to +30kW of power while coasting which gives a very strong braking effect (similar to a manual transmission downshifting into a low gear) and very helpful for stop and go driving (you aren't switching between gas and brake so often in traffic and saves wear on your brake pads). The S model Eco mode is exactly like the SV model Eco mode + B mode activated at the same time. I personally like to drive with Eco mode off but B mode on in light city driving/traffic. In heavy stop and go city traffic, I'll use Eco mode and B mode for sanity reasons. While driving outside the city (highway, no stoplights, stop signs, etc.) then I just drive regular D mode with no B mode (or Eco mode off for the S model) because I want to maximize range.

The GPS in vehicle is helpful sometimes, but you can do just as well with a phone GPS and map app. You will miss cruise control if you do a lot of extended, no traffic highway driving, otherwise you won't find much use for a lot of city driving.

Thank you for that info. I really would like to give the fully electric a try. My job has mostly me waiting for hours. Then I might have an hour to do a job somewhere then sit back out in the car. I could almost say I practically live in it. I have slept in it before. I could potentially wait until the ev clears or just get there really early, or even sleep close by on the street at night then top off in the early morning. It could work.... As I mentioned, most of the time I spend it 'waiting' for something to come up though I do have certain hours that are already 'pre-arranged' for me to do something for about an hour or two... then its all about waiting again. I wanted to try a prius, but the thought of saving money has been on my mind. I really could use the $ savings. I practically 'work' the whole day if you can call waiting around working lol.

One thing that could be a concern is paying as much as a hybrid with the ev if I use public charging stations. From the ergevgo the total per month for charging with them appears to be 100$. Would a prius have a cost of $100 a month if I do my usual 1200 miles? Unless I did the math wrong with the ev charging. I basically just made it so I charged everyday. someone mentioned I would only need to do it every 2-3 days. If so then it would be less than 100$.... Thoughts?

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If you do spend a lot of time on "standby" for your job, then an EV might actually be a perfect match. You have to be ready at a moment's notice but there might be a lot of idle time. Actually quite perfect for an EV because time is what a lot of people complain about when it comes to recharge for an EV. Those couple of hours you spend idle (but must be in the vehicle to move at a moment's notice) is perfect for recharging. You might find yourself able to maximize free charging this way (you won't be burning gas to run the AC or heater to keep the vehicle comfortable for example) All the energy for the Prius still comes from gas. It is always cheaper to buy electricity than to create it yourself from gasoline. If you buy gas at $4 for one gallon and that gallon of gas can produce 6kW of power for an hour, that is still way more expensive than what the electric company charges for the same 6kW of power for an hour.

Thanks I appreciate the responses . I will likely not miss the Cruise Control since I don't do hwy driving every single day. I just got to figure out if a lease would be better than buying a used 2013 leaf. Now that I think about it. At the end of the lease I won't be getting any money back at all while with a used 2013 leaf once 3 years are up I can sell it back and get some money still. Wouldn't this be better than getting a leased car? It seems you will at least need to spend 10k in the lease over the course of 3 years then all of that money will be one once its over .

Look at it this way: a 2013 Leaf that has 12 bars is probably actually closer to 11. If you will do fine on 10-11 bars' worth of range, buy a nice used 2013. If you will be a little short on range at 10 bars, lease a new one.

NissanLeafCamper said:

minispeed said:

Why not a volt? With the second gen coming out there are good deals now on the first version if you want to lease and it will probably bring down values on used cars at GM lots.

It will do 38 miles electric and with careful driving I know of one volt owner that gets up to 60 in city driving (the only volt owner I know). If you are willing to spend the time at the public chargers you'll be near 100% electric but when you can't or the S hits the fan, or general bad luck of ICE'd/broken/occupied chargers gets in the way you won't be screwed.

If you regularly drive past the all electric range of the volt then I know the PIP is cheaper to run but since most of your driving will be under 40 miles/day I think you'll find the volt cheaper to run.

I would guess since you're a van guy that you think it's too small but you can put an inch and a quarter hitch on it and tow a small trailer or use a cargo rack and or get a roof rack. Roof racks will limit your range on the highway a lot. On my optima the hitch mounted cargo rack behind the car actually improved aero and fuel economy as it fills the turbulent space behind the car. It may not do that on a volt though since it's been optimized for aero more than the optima probably was.

The downside is that it charges slower than the leaf so you're looking at approx. daily charging of 3 hrs instead of every other day at 4hrs (assuming a 6.6kW charge for the leaf).

Click to expand...

It would depend on how much it costs me. I want to save 13k to get a used 2013 leaf. 13k for me before the end of a year is a bit of a feat in itself. If it costs more than that then I can't afford it. I'd love a tesla but I can't afford it. Though what I really want is savings. So if the ev gives me the most savings at the pump then I'd rather get the EV. I would actually prefer the quicker charger though just incase I am caught in a awkward situation and can only charge for so much. The leaf would charge quicker with out having to kick in the ice because it didn't charge enough.

For leasing I am still not sure. Would you be able to help me figure out what all the leasing fees will total out for?

Down Payment (Which appears to be 2,000$ from a few posts I read)
Security Deposit (Not sure how much this one will be? I'd consider this one eaten by the dealer at the end of the lease.
Acquisition Fee/Due at lease signing (Not sure how this one will cost either.)
Disposition Fee (Paid at the end of the lease when you return the car. Google says it could be $350)
Sales Tax (I think this is only applied to the down payment? 10%?)
Documentation/“doc” fees/Administrative fee (Google says $250 to $600?)

Also "Dealers often have fees such as “bank fees” or “prep fees” or “delivery fees” that are completely bogus and should be negotiated out of any car purchase or lease deal."

Am I missing anything? What are the associated costs for these?

I still wonder if the total to lease for 3 years will be less or more than the depreciation of a 2013 leaf in the same time span .

Click to expand...

Yes your choice is much better with a used leaf than a used volt. There are 11 used volts in CA under $15k and 275 used Leafs (65 of them 13+). I did 300 miles from 90210 on autotrader.com. Cheapest volt is $11 and cheapest leaf is $9.5k but the cheapest 13+ is $12K. Leaf millage is 35-50K and volts are 80K+. The downside to a cheap leaf is the potential for battery degradation or maybe even a BMS reset that hides it. The volt batteries haven't degraded to below 35 miles range and if they do you're insulated by the ICE. I would say the volt is a much safer buy. You will probably hold more resale value in a volt too which may cover the total cost of ownership if you burn say $400 of gas a year and 4 years later get $1600 more for it.

I just read that the volt will be available for pre order in CA on May 28th (or around there) so that may signal some push to clear out old ones. If you want to know lease details your best bet is to go in and talk to someone. I know it can be high stress but just be honest with the sales person up front and a lot of them will be honest with you back. Tell them you want to know 100% total cost of everything for lease, how much you would have to pay at the signing and how much you would pay each month. Let them punch the numbers and then ask for them to give it to you in writing and with a breakdown of how they got them.

LeftieBiker said:

Look at it this way: a 2013 Leaf that has 12 bars is probably actually closer to 11. If you will do fine on 10-11 bars' worth of range, buy a nice used 2013. If you will be a little short on range at 10 bars, lease a new one.

Click to expand...

About how many 'useable' miles do you think a leaf will give me with 11 bars? I can plan on charging just about everyday when I am 'idle' waiting for work to call. The most I ever do is 40 miles though it tends to dwell between 35 and 40. Definitely no more than 40 miles on a single day. Summer is looking to be slower than in spring, so I might end up doing less miles overall. Things will definitely pick back up to normal in fall.

I will have to keep a sharp eye on those battery bars. I am completely new to the leaf and I honestly don't even know what to look for. I was told that you can get an app called leafspy? for an android device, but I never use a phone. Someone said I can use an emulator on my laptop (I use my laptop for calls/texts with gmail/google voice (I have an old mobile hotspot 5gb/mo 50$ from AT&T)) to run the app and connect via laptop's blue tooth? Does anyone know if this app works with ubuntu too? windows 8 has been a pain to use so I uninstalled it.

minispeed said:

Yes your choice is much better with a used leaf than a used volt. There are 11 used volts in CA under $15k and 275 used Leafs (65 of them 13+). I did 300 miles from 90210 on autotrader.com. Cheapest volt is $11 and cheapest leaf is $9.5k but the cheapest 13+ is $12K. Leaf millage is 35-50K and volts are 80K+. The downside to a cheap leaf is the potential for battery degradation or maybe even a BMS reset that hides it. The volt batteries haven't degraded to below 35 miles range and if they do you're insulated by the ICE. I would say the volt is a much safer buy. You will probably hold more resale value in a volt too which may cover the total cost of ownership if you burn say $400 of gas a year and 4 years later get $1600 more for it.

I just read that the volt will be available for pre order in CA on May 28th (or around there) so that may signal some push to clear out old ones. If you want to know lease details your best bet is to go in and talk to someone. I know it can be high stress but just be honest with the sales person up front and a lot of them will be honest with you back. Tell them you want to know 100% total cost of everything for lease, how much you would have to pay at the signing and how much you would pay each month. Let them punch the numbers and then ask for them to give it to you in writing and with a breakdown of how they got them.

Click to expand...

How badly can the degradation be? Doesn't the leaf have a 10 year battery warranty that should still be active on it? Couldn't I just turn my degrated battery to a nissan dealer and get a new one? What is the worst case scenario with a leaf that has a bms reset? 10 bars? 8 Bars? What kind of range could I expect with less bars on the leaf? What I mean is how many miles do you lose per bar?

I have not thought on comparing the resale value of the leaf vs the volt. I think the volt would require more repairs in the long run than the electric. I really want to stay with this car for about 3 years because I want to buy the e-nv200 once it comes around. I think maybe the longest wait will be 3 years. 1200 monthly miles will mean 14400 miles a year and in 3 years that will be 43200 miles added to the car. I think a higher mileage car will mean more repairs than a less mileage car in the long run. I keep hearing that electrics are almost maintanance free when compared with ice ones. I was also told that hybrids tend to be a poorer choice because you have to do repairs both the gas parts and the electric parts in the long run; like owning two cars instead of one?

I went to a nissan dealer yesterday and the guy was kind of rude . I wanted to talk about lease options but he kept telling me I had to test drive the leaf first. I finally managed to get him some info out with out doing a credit check (which he was adamant about. I don't want a hard inquiry on my credit yet). Said 230/ mo with 2k down payment. But once we start to get into leases again I come back to my later question that once the lease is over I lose all my money while a used car will at least give me some money back once I sell it . From the research I did it seems at least 10k total is needed over the course of the lease to get the car. That is too much money to lose with out getting any back in the end .

NissanLeafCamper said:

LeftieBiker said:

Look at it this way: a 2013 Leaf that has 12 bars is probably actually closer to 11. If you will do fine on 10-11 bars' worth of range, buy a nice used 2013. If you will be a little short on range at 10 bars, lease a new one.

Click to expand...

About how many 'useable' miles do you think a leaf will give me with 11 bars? I can plan on charging just about everyday when I am 'idle' waiting for work to call. The most I ever do is 40 miles though it tends to dwell between 35 and 40. Definitely no more than 40 miles on a single day. Summer is looking to be slower than in spring, so I might end up doing less miles overall. Things will definitely pick back up to normal in fall.

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From what I've read here, owners that are down to nearly warranty replacement (8 bars I think) were still getting 50 miles a charge. The condition of the battery depends on the environment it came from (super hot or mild, cold, etc.) and next by how the previous owner treated the vehicle (left it dead all the time or moderately charged for example)

I will have to keep a sharp eye on those battery bars. I am completely new to the leaf and I honestly don't even know what to look for. I was told that you can get an app called leafspy? for an android device, but I never use a phone. Someone said I can use an emulator on my laptop (I use my laptop for calls/texts with gmail/google voice (I have an old mobile hotspot 5gb/mo 50$ from AT&T)) to run the app and connect via laptop's blue tooth? Does anyone know if this app works with ubuntu too? windows 8 has been a pain to use so I uninstalled it.

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You can certainly get the most accurate reading this way, but also a little research is helpful. Mainly, where did the used leaf come from (some place where the extreme hot weather has already been done to damage range like Phoenix, AZ) or some place cooler. Also, how many miles does the vehicle have. I bought my 2013 with only 12k miles and both came from Michigan so I know hot weather wasn't an issue. If leafspy is not a good choice, you can always test drive the vehicle and use the battery percent meter and trip mileage meter as a manual way to estimate battery health. Reset the trip, make sure all the AC/heat/whatever is turned off and drive the vehicle for about 5 miles. See if this depletes the capacity by 5%. If it were to deplete the capacity by 10% for example, then a couple of things could be an issue such as low air tires or battery capacity is reduced quite a bit. It's not perfect, but after doing a lot of test driving used leaf vehicles this way, I could quickly spot the ones I wanted to avoid and after looking at the vehicle history it usually confirmed my suspicion.

How badly can the degradation be? Doesn't the leaf have a 10 year battery warranty that should still be active on it? Couldn't I just turn my degrated battery to a nissan dealer and get a new one? What is the worst case scenario with a leaf that has a bms reset? 10 bars? 8 Bars? What kind of range could I expect with less bars on the leaf? What I mean is how many miles do you lose per bar?

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The 10 years is for the battery to not just up and fail completely, then there is a "sub-warranty" on capacity that it will retain at least 8 bars for 5 years or 60k miles that must be maintained by an annual (first 2 are free) battery check done by Nissan. If you purchase a used 2013 with low mileage, then you will have until 2018 on that capacity warranty. You can search the forum for others that have 2011 or 2012 models that hit the battery warranty and got brand new batteries from the deal, but a lot of those had severe, hot weather related degradation issues and the new battery packs are suppose to remedy the issue. I have not read any reports of the 2013 models having this issue and it is suspected that the battery chemistry was upgraded for the 2013, 2014, 2015, etc. models to fix the issue but not made public until 2015.

I have not thought on comparing the resale value of the leaf vs the volt. I think the volt would require more repairs in the long run than the electric. I really want to stay with this car for about 3 years because I want to buy the e-nv200 once it comes around. I think maybe the longest wait will be 3 years. 1200 monthly miles will mean 14400 miles a year and in 3 years that will be 43200 miles added to the car. I think a higher mileage car will mean more repairs than a less mileage car in the long run. I keep hearing that electrics are almost maintanance free when compared with ice ones. I was also told that hybrids tend to be a poorer choice because you have to do repairs both the gas parts and the electric parts in the long run; like owning two cars instead of one?

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Well yeah, the gas engine still needs gas, motor oil, manifold, exhaust, etc. I don't know how well hybrids perform when just "idle" all the time vs. when driving. You still have engine noise, exhaust fumes, etc. to deal with. I've spent hours in my Leaf during both the winter months and hot weather now. I was surprised by how little energy the AC or heating system uses when you are just sitting idle to keep a comfortable temperature, all while not plugged into any charger. Your mileage many vary on that. :mrgreen:

I went to a nissan dealer yesterday and the guy was kind of rude . I wanted to talk about lease options but he kept telling me I had to test drive the leaf first. I finally managed to get him some info out with out doing a credit check (which he was adamant about. I don't want a hard inquiry on my credit yet). Said 230/ mo with 2k down payment. But once we start to get into leases again I come back to my later question that once the lease is over I lose all my money while a used car will at least give me some money back once I sell it . From the research I did it seems at least 10k total is needed over the course of the lease to get the car. That is too much money to lose with out getting any back in the end .

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The saleman makes more money on a new lease than a used sale, just the way business is for them. The new lease gets the federal discount, state discount, etc. The used vehicle already had those discounts cashed in by the previous buyer/lease, so depending on a lot of variables, they could make less money on the sale of the used one. Your best best is to find a 2013 that was a lease. The previous owner had to take better care to avoid paying for repairs when the lease was turned in. Low mileage is also another factor of the lease, so you'll find them with probably less than 13k miles and still another year of warranty to boot. If the lease if your choice, then get the lease as low as you can and be ready to turn in the vehicle in 2 or 3 years and then you will have to decide if you want to lease another or find another vehicle, etc.

NissanLeafCamper said:

That is too much money to lose with out getting any back in the end .

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Still better than $12-15k on gas, oil changes and other maintenance for your "ICY" van without getting anything back!

Besides, you would of course get to use it, a nice new 2015 Leaf, and you'd also have the option of buying it. For some, that's the only way to take full advantage of the $7,500 federal incentive. If the e-NV200 comes out a little early, you might be able to get out of your Leaf-lease to move into a new one for the van. $230/month tax included isn't so bad, as long as it includes the quick-charge port (and especially if it is for 15k miles/year).

From here on though, I'm just going to be a spectator in this story!

ps. If you do buy a 2013, be sure to learn how to use LeafSpy before purchase, lest you experience a nightmare scenario.