edatoakrun
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Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:03 am

Tony Williams

...If the roads are dry and "uncontanimated" with snow, and the heater is off, the LEAF will get about 4 miles/kWh at 65mph regardless of the temperature on a level, no wind roadway...


DaveinOlyWA Tony...this entire conversation started with the bolded text you put out and i will say it now and forever is total Bullshit...


Nightrider ...I have been getting 5.2 m/kwh at 60 mph on I-95 a lot lately, on flat roads without climate control....


Nightrider, do you have a recent report on your total battery capacity from “100"%” to VLBW?

The CarWings kWh report number is preferable, but you can use the less accurate nav screen or dash m/kWh calculation to get this number, if you must.

I expect the reason so many posters on this and other threads are seeing widely varying dash m/kWh reports is probably because those reports are inaccurate, and you are only continuing to waste your time when you rely on this data source.

The dash m/kWh evidently reflect a constant error of ~2.5%, on every LEAF. You can easily avoid that error just by using the nav screen m/kWh report (if you have a nav screen).

But if the kWh use report your LEAF is using to calculate both those numbers is also incorrect, you have a real garbage in/garbage out data problem.

I believe my LEAF has a very significant error in its kWh use reports, as determined by range tests, and also to some extent, by recharge capacity tests.

From the wildly varying MNL posts on dash m/kWh, I would be surprised if many other LEAFs did not have a kWh report error,
just as mine does, though probably of varying severity.

To see this kWh reporting error, you need a history of controlled range tests, or of accurate recharge capacity tests, to show that any decrease in your battery capacity is due to this error, and not due to an actual decrease in available battery capacity.

I first noticed, and posted about this error last Summer, when my CW m/kWh (whose 2.5 % odometer error error is replicated by the dash/kWh) first showed a large and unexplained increase of m/kWh, from 4.9 to 5.7, based on the kWh use report reduction from 18.7 to 16.8.

...I think that my range tests may indicate that whatever method my LEAF uses to calculate kWh, is variable, and has been significantly understating the recent amounts of kWh use, and has probably increasingly inflated all my m/kWh reports, from the dash, nav screen, and CW.

And of course, this could reflect with Tick Tocks observations of variable “gid” Wh values. Gids with higher Wh content could lower the calculated kWh numbers, and raise all the m/kWh results.

Maybe this is what I am seeing, from yesterdays range test. I tried to replicate as accurately as possible, my earliest range test,of almost a year, and almost 10,000 miles ago, to test this hypothesis.

I chose a day with very close to the original temperature condition, and drove the exact same route over the first 87 miles of the trip, using the same mode (eco) and used my original trip logs to closely replicate the same elapsed times for each of the three (same distance) legs of the trip.

The results from 8/30/12 were:

97.3 miles to VLB, 98.9 miles in total, by the odometer.

CW: 96.5 (~2.5% under-report) total miles, at 5.7 m/kWh, 16.8 kWh used from 100% to about the same capacity level, slightly past VLBW.

Compare this test with my first test on 9/7/11:

91.5 miles to VLB, 93.4 in total, by the odometer

CW: 91.1 (~2.5% under-report) total miles, at 4.9 m/kWh, 18.7 kWh used from 100% to about the same capacity level, slightly past VLBW.

I do not believe that the slight increase in range over the last year reflects any increase in battery capacity. On the contrary, I expect that my total capacity ( though maybe not the amount of kWh that the BMS is allowing me to access) has declined by an undetermined amount, but it cannot be detected due to the “noise” of uncontrolled variables in a range test....


viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=20

Below is a summary of the CW reported battery capacity since Summer of 2011.

I only began regularly testing all the way to VLBW on this route, after the large and unexplained "phantom" loss of capacity show edup, in the Spring of 2011.

Below is how Carwings has reported the total energy use from "100%" to ~VLBW on my warm climate LEAF two years from the factory and with ~16,000 miles on the odometer.

While the reported kWh use has dropped quite a bit, My LEAF has displayed no significant loss of range from my first test, to most recent, on range tests of 95-113 miles, when corrected for all test variables, including speed, temperature both when charging and when driving, and my own driving efficiency (as reflected in the regen kWh reported by CarWings).

Of course my battery has lost capacity in the last 18 months, it just not yet a large enough loss to show up clearly in a range test, and is, IMO, nearly certainly far less than the kWh use results below, showing capacity loss approaching 15% just over the last 18 months (when adjusted for battery temperature) would indicate:

All charges prior to testing were to “80%", battery allowed to return to ambient temperature, and then charged @ 16 A 240 V to “100%”, two to three hours before range/capacity test begins, and then left plugged into the EVSE until departure.

IMO The distance driven at the point where the battery temp bars increased, when that has occurred, is useful data as to the relative battery temp and temperature the (temperature variable) battery capacity when the "100%" charge was completed.

9/7/11 18.7 kWh from "100%" to VLBW, 6 dash battery temp bars constant (as recalled later)

5/10 12 17.2 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~mile 73

5/31/12 17.5 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~mile 5

6/17/12 17.5 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

8/18/12 17.0 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

8/30/12 16.8 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

9/08/12 16.7 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~ 4.6 miles

10/1/12 16.6 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

11/3/12 16.2 kwh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 14

1/31 15.7 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 24

2/16/13 15.8 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 18

3/1/13 15.6 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 18

3/13/13 16.0 kWh, 5 bars temp constant


I think it is nearly certain, that the LEAF "gauge error" that has shown up in premature battery capacity bar loss and Wh/gid error in other LEAFs is also displaying itself in the dash and nav screen m/kWh, and also in the (more accurate) CarWings kWh use reports, from my LEAF, as I have posted above.

IMO, any LEAFer who can learn to use CarWings, may see the same sort of results I have, and also be able to largely differentiate any range loss due to real battery capacity loss, from their LEAF's questionable kWh use reports, as I believe I have been able to do.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11591&start=20

Back to the immediate question of how range and battery capacity vary with both battery temperature while charging and driving temperature, After the hundreds of comparisons of range and capacity variations with temperature I have made since, the results I got 18 months ago still seem close to correct, though I now believe all test results are less certain and accurate since the kWh reports you need to use for this test, are just as suspect as when you use them for a range test.

On 11/8 (11) I attempted to replicate the route and conditions of an earlier trip, which I had kept careful notes of, to try to see what sort of range reduction is caused by reduced m/kWh due to lower temperatures, and what proportion of this reduction is due to reduced battery capacity. I did this on a dry day with windows up, without using the heater or windshield wipers. I believe that I got about 5% reduction in battery capacity, and a slightly larger decrease in driving efficiency (m/kWh) resulting in a total range reduction of over 10%. This is the same trip I made several times over the summer, and posted details of on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5423

..My trip ... was 87.6 miles by odometer (85.5 miles by CarWings-see other thread for info on this 2.5% discrepancy) with between 5,000 and 5,500 ft. of total ascent and descent, carwings reports 16.8 kWh consumed and 5.1 m/kWh. I believe my total battery capacity after charging to 100%, was about 20.4 kWh.

When I made the (almost) identical drive on 11/8 of 88 miles (85.9 as reported by CW) CW reported 17.6 kWh consumed and 4.9 m/kWh. I believe my total battery capacity when I left home with a 100% charge was probably close to 19.4 kWh...

...this approximately 40 degree decrease in temp when charging, and 50 degree reduction when driving, resulted in about 10% recorded range reduction...


viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6701&start=60

IOW, many subsequent tests seem to indicate that my LEAF’s kWh use report error varied very little between these two trips, which were driven only ~ 2 months apart.

If you want to test for these temperature variables yourself, you will need to use the Carwings reports for the same reason you need them for any other accurate range test, to get the regen kWh report to check for driver efficiency, and the kWh use data before it’s accuracy is reduced by the m/kwh dash and nav screen displays.
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LEAFfan
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:34 am

If Night gets 5.2m/kW at 60mph, then to check the dash's accuracy, you just need to multiply by 21 if a 100% charge and see if the total miles match. Remember, 60mph is really 58 actual.
I know for a fact that my dash gauge was extremely accurate and CWs was always inaccurate and gave inflated numbers.
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edatoakrun
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:02 am

LEAFfan wrote:...I know for a fact that my dash gauge was extremely accurate and CWs was always inaccurate and gave inflated numbers...


AFAIK, everyone who has had Carwings operating correctly, either after the NTB11-041 update for the early LEAFs,

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5423

or from delivery for later cars, has reported the same experience I have for over 18 months now, as explained below:


Here are my suggestions, for you and other CW users.

All 2011-2 LEAFs, AFAIK, have reported the same Carwings odometer and Dash m/kWh error of consistently under-reporting by ~2.5%.

So if your CW miles driven is ~2.5% lower than your dash odometer miles, and your dash m/kWh is showing ~2.5% less than your nav screen m/kWh (0.1 m/kWh lower below ~6 m/kWh, and 0.2 m/kWh lower when you are getting over ~6 m/kWh) this is "normal" for 2011-2012 LEAFs.

Hopefully, Nissan has fixed this error in the 2013s. Any readers have a CW equipped 2013? Please check and report back.

If you are "missing" more miles than this, go to the "rate simulation" page at the CW site.

Here, each "trip" (each start/stop cycle) will be individually reported. Make sure that each of the "trips"you have made each day, is showing up. Each trip will show the same ~2.5% under-report of miles driven as your daily total, and each m/kWh report there will match your dash (if you reset it) for the corresponding trip, again showing the same ~2.5% under-report error.

The Dash, nav screen and CW m/kWh all are mathematically "correct" as a function of the total kWh use reported by CW for every trip, day, or months driving.

It's just that the dash uses the same ~2.5% understated miles to make its calculation of m/kWh as CW does, while the nav screen is always accurate as a function of reported kWh use, as it uses the dash odometer miles, for the m/kWh calculation.

Got it?

BTW, while every LEAF driver, AFAIK, has reported the dash odometer as very close to correct, while using stock tires and wheels, IMO it wouldn't hurt to confirm your dash odometer is correct, by checking with another source, such as Google maps.

Now back to the "rate simulation" page, If you are missing any "trips", that you made on any given day, and every driver is pushing "accept" every time, please report back.

I have missed only a couple of "trips" in the ~12,000 miles since I've been using Carwings (since an update corrected errors in the early LEAFs) so I believe they probably have all been due to operator error on my part, as I make a very quick stab at the screen, and I think I probably just missed "accept" a couple of times.


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11769

If you, "LEAFfan", or anyone else has ever actually experienced anything different from CarWings than as described above, please report exactly what it is you are seeing.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:28 am

N1ghtrider wrote:Tony and others. I have been getting 5.2 m/kwh at 60 mph on I-95 a lot lately, on flat roads without climate control. I usually drop down to 5.0 with the a/c on.


That's what you read on the dash after resetting it?

I have run enough tests on the LEAF to know you're NOT going 5.2 miles/kWh at 60mph. That's a simple matter of physics and aerodynamics. At 62 mph ground speed, over and over, I have personally witnessed 4.0 miles per kWh on many different cars, all years 2011 - 2013, including my two LEAFs.

So, there just isn't any physical way that your car gets a 30% better economy at 58-60mph. I do hope everybody reading this understands that simple point.

This isn't some CarWings thing, right? Or, you didn't reset the dash economy meter? Certainly, there's no question in my mind that there is a variation between dash economy meters, and I guess it's possible to be this far off, but I haven't seen that (and I've seen a LOT of LEAF cars!!!).

How about this; you top off the LEAF and take a 60mph drive down those perfectly flat Florida freeways. Reset trip odometer. Reset the dash economy meter when the car reaches 60mph indicated. Drive all the way to LBW or VLB.

Note miles driven and economy. If you can get a Gidmeter, that would sure help.

Thanks,

Tony
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

edatoakrun
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:57 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
N1ghtrider wrote:Tony and others. I have been getting 5.2 m/kwh at 60 mph on I-95 a lot lately, on flat roads without climate control. I usually drop down to 5.0 with the a/c on.


That's what you read on the dash after resetting it?

I have run enough tests on the LEAF to know you're NOT going 5.2 miles/kWh at 60mph. That's a simple matter of physics and aerodynamics. At 62 mph ground speed, over and over, I have personally witnessed 4.0 miles per kWh on many different cars, all years 2011 - 2013, including my two LEAFs...



Well, this appears to be a case of Tonamnesia, as variations in dash m/kWh of between 3.7 and 4.4 were actually reported (or misreported, as the case may be) by Tony for the Phoenix test LEAFs:

wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss

"TonyWilliams"So, there just isn't any physical way that your car gets a 30% better economy at 58-60mph. I do hope everybody ready this understands that simple point.


Tony did get that right.

A pity, IMO, that someone made the foolish decision to not record the CarWings reports from each of those Phoenix test LEAFs, so that we will never have a clear view of the reported battery capacity and efficiency from each of those LEAFs, so we could have seen where those (almost certain, IMO) errors in the dash m/kWh reports came from.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:57 am

edatoakrun wrote:
Well, this appears to be a case of Tonamnesia, as variations in dash m/kWh of between 3.7 and 4.4 were actually reported (or misreported, as the case may be) by Tony for the Phoenix test LEAFs:


Ya, it's a huge government plot, Ed. All my decades of US government service have served me well, but you're just too crafty.

As I stated and have reported numerous times, even in this thread, these meters are a LONG way from perfect. Like normal, you bring nothing to the issue.

3.7 - 4.4 is predominately 4.0. As a matter of fact, most cars hit much closer to the 4.0 than the outliers.

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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:25 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
N1ghtrider wrote:Tony and others. I have been getting 5.2 m/kwh at 60 mph on I-95 a lot lately, on flat roads without climate control. I usually drop down to 5.0 with the a/c on.


That's what you read on the dash after resetting it?

This isn't some CarWings thing, right? Or, you didn't reset the dash economy meter?Tony


Tony: That is the Carwings number; not from the dash.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:54 pm

N1ghtrider wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
N1ghtrider wrote:Tony and others. I have been getting 5.2 m/kwh at 60 mph on I-95 a lot lately, on flat roads without climate control. I usually drop down to 5.0 with the a/c on.


That's what you read on the dash after resetting it?

This isn't some CarWings thing, right? Or, you didn't reset the dash economy meter?Tony


Tony: That is the Carwings number; not from the dash.


Ok, I rest my case. Thanks for clarifying.

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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:47 am

LEAFfan wrote: I know for a fact that my dash gauge was extremely accurate and CWs was always inaccurate and gave inflated numbers.

+1
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edatoakrun
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:19 am

KJD wrote:
LEAFfan wrote: I know for a fact that my dash gauge was extremely accurate and CWs was always inaccurate and gave inflated numbers.

+1


I suggest you take a look at my 3/25 post above to see why Carwings is a much more accurate source of energy use data than your dash gauges.

If you can't use use CarWings, you may find yourself just as incompetent as Tony Williams, and posting the same "total Bullshit" regarding LEAF range and battery capacity questions as he does.

FYI, below is a screen shot of my rate simulation page showing the last two range tests I posted on 3/25 above, showing energy use and regen for each "trip" (start/stop cycle) segment of the 3/1 and 3/13 range tests.

Only because I had the CW data from the earlier trip, could I add the short additional distance shown in trips two and three on 3/13, with the complete confidence that I would be able to make the final ~46 miles (over a mountain pass) and return home.


Image

For more info on the range test methodology, the roads, and the elevation profile, see:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064
Last edited by edatoakrun on Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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