Commuting over Hill and Dale--Can the Leaf cut it?

Hello everyone!

I'm thinking of purchasing a Nissan Leaf when the 2013 models come out. I'm balking at the range though. My commute is about 30 miles each way. There's two ways to do it...

1) Freeway for 32 miles (either stop and go or 50-65 MPH, depends on the time of day)
2) Over the mountain pass for 29 miles (Going over the mountain is about a 1000 ft climb on one side, and a 1200 ft descent the other)

Most days I work from home for the morning and take the freeway in when traffic has cleared up. It takes about 40-50 minutes to do this. On the way home, I usually take the mountain pass back when traffic is terrible any time I leave. It takes about 1hr 15min, and this time is very reliable. If I take the freeway, it can take anywhere from 1 hour to 2.5 hours.

With a total of 60-64 miles round trip, I'm very concerned about the range of the Leaf. It is possible for me to charge my car at work, but they have inconveniently located the charging station on the exact opposite side of the campus. If I plug it in all day, I've got to pay $6 for charging. If I plug it in and go back to unplug it, the charge is $1.20/hour. The walk from the charger to my office is about 1/2 a mile. Parking here and plugging in, then going back to unplug it, then going back again to go home involves walking 2 miles--not that I mind walking, but that does tend to eat into my work day. So I'd like to commute most days without charging, with the option to do so if something goes wrong with the commute (car not fully charged, long detour, traffic going 70MPH).

I have 2 questions:
1) Which is the more efficient route: The freeway or the mountain pass?
2) I'm I likely to get stranded?

Thanks for the help, and I really hope I can make the Leaf work for me. A step up to a Tesla S just seems too expensive to justify the extra range.

--Harper

Where are you located? Can you update your location info?

There are some CA compliance cars w/more range like the Rav4 EV.

I'm commuting from Vancouver, Washington to Hillsboro, OR. The "Mountain Pass" is Germantown road and winds me through the St. Johns area of town.

A small folding bike, or even an electric scooter or skateboard might make the trip back and forth to the charging spot a lot more friendly.

Nubo said:

A small folding bike, or even an electric scooter or skateboard might make the trip back and forth to the charging spot a lot more friendly.

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Exactly! I've used two different GoPeds for over 20 years. I recommend the electric powered GoPed; fits in the trunk easily, though not exactly super light.

You could mount it with a trade hitch type carrier (outside, low to the ground).

Here's the elevation profile for that covers part of your trip via Germantown Road. This will be a super smart way to go... easy does it up the hill, and have fun going down. In the winter, you may want to drive without the heater to extend range, but in the summer, this will be VERY easy.

http://goo.gl/maps/UOSy5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would NOT buy a leaf with your commute. During summer months your distance is doable but you would have to charge to 100% which is not optimal for the life of the battery.

In the winter forget it. I live in Yelm, WA (Olympia) so I have an idea of your commute and climate. You would not like worrying about range and being cold. All of these opinions are based on charging only from home.

If you are charging at work it is very doable. But, do you really want to go through all of the hassles of walking across campus charging and walking back? It is a neat car but that does not sound convenient. You are not really one of the people this car was made for. You would sacrifice too much of your time to really enjoy the experience.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

downeykp said:

I would NOT buy a leaf with your commute.

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Mostly agree. 60 miles is beyond the "easy, just charge at home and drive range". Especially in bad weather, and more so as the battery wears out. But you do have workplace charging, so using that would allow for the bad days... Assuming of course that the charger isn't overcrowded on bad days. Also there are DCQC stations in that area... But these might also have crowding issues, and some types have reliability issues.

But on the other side, the Leaf is fun to drive, no greenhouse gases, and workplace charging might get better (ie closer). Also I'd expect that your heart doctor would be happy about your daily walks. And if you don't have a heart doctor...that is a good thing.

This is from someone who lost the first bar at 11,000 miles/ 10months . seems like I could get 70 miles with mix city /hwy driving during summer months when new, Now about 55 miles summer and 45miles in the winter with the heater. I would NOT recommend this unless you can charge everyday easily, it will leave you stranded if you have a cold day, and couldnt charge,(dont risk it). 6 dollar aday charging is more than gas you could save money with an ICE. that price is crazy, it cost me 30.00 month for electricty and I charge everyday. My total day travel average is 30 miles. I think it would be fine for the first year but you risk problems for the next few years. If you did a 2 year lease then at least you could see if this will work long term and your rate of battery degredation would be plotted. Bad new is the car looses most of its range in the first year, and then you have to live with the car for the next 2-3. Range with this car on the hwy at greater than 60mph goes down fast. Hills will kill some of that but if you went slow up and coast slow down it could be minimized. Other "Range freaks" not a bad term just really able to suck all the power and miles out of the car would say this is fine ( 60 miles a day) but a real person driving the car like a real CAR you will get in trouble at some point when weather changes. This car is not does not do well in cold weather with the heater. Your battery charge goes down and the heater sucks the battery like your traveling 70mph.

YMMV.

good luck

Harperhendee said:

Hello everyone!

I'm thinking of purchasing a Nissan Leaf when the 2013 models come out. I'm balking at the range though. My commute is about 30 miles each way. There's two ways to do it...

1) Freeway for 32 miles (either stop and go or 50-65 MPH, depends on the time of day)
2) Over the mountain pass for 29 miles (Going over the mountain is about a 1000 ft climb on one side, and a 1200 ft descent the other)...

I have 2 questions:
1) Which is the more efficient route: The freeway or the mountain pass?...
--Harper

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The "most efficient" in m/kWh will be the one you can drive at the slowest near-constant speed.

You will probably be able to do the mountain route with a "80"% charge (if you choose to) in the Summer.

In the winter you will probably find yourself charging to higher than 80% on a regular basis (even with the heat pump which you will want!) but that's not a problem.

If you often have to add a lot of miles with detours and errands, you will want to find a daytime charge option.

Any DC chargers likely to be installed nearby?

Your description of your L2 situation pretty much sums up why they will probably never be economically viable options for daytime charging of BEVs, IMO.

mksE55 said:

This is from someone who lost the first bar at 11,000 miles/ 10months

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This is the Pacific Northwest, not Texas or Arizona. People have been known to complain about the heat at 25 C. There is at least one PNW Leaf past 60k miles with all 12 bars (TaylorSFGuy) and I've yet to hear of a local Leaf losing a bar. I do suspect that TaylorSFGuy will lose a bar this year. Batteries do wear out with cycles and with time, and much faster at higher temperatures.

If the mountain won't come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain.

--I'd say you should switch tactics. Go to the facilities director and give him a piece of your mind. Ask why they are charging so much for a charge, when a lot of facilities offer free charging, to encourage EV adoption and because there are so few vehicles ever using it anyway. And for that, tell him how difficult it is to get to the charger, and worse, it denies disabled workers equal access to that charge unit, if they work like you all the way at the other building.

There must be something they can do -- either offer you a plug to connect to at your building with the trickle charger (may give you just enough charge over an 8 hour day to get home.....) or perhaps have the company security guard give you a ride back and forth across campus to get back to your car. Or, ideally, they will just pay for a second L2 charger at your building.

Harperhendee, folks have sure gotten pessimistic in the past year! If you go back and read some older threads you will find a much more jovial attitude. That said, remember folks this is a 2013 he is thinking about. It will have the more efficient heater (yes, that will work in 45 F rainy Portland) and heated seats. I'm hoping for about 10% more range due to the lower weight and wind resistance. In addition, since you have lots of charging options, at work and on the route home, I would get the 6.6 KW charger option. That means you are "paying" about $0.30/KWH when charging away from home. In an emergency situation (likely to happen more in the rainy/snowy winter), you can stop at any L2 have a nice dinner and add another 6-12 KWH to the battery, extending the range by another 20-30 miles. Certainly in EV-friendly Portland there will likely be twice as many charging stations in 2013, but even now there are multiple DCQC options and 10-20 L2 showing on http://www.plugshare.com. Since the work place cost is less, you might plan on arriving an hour or two before lunch, and move the car after 1-2 hr charging.

You have to look at your own motivation for driving an EV. Some will say that you must sacrifice to drive an EV (e.g., extra planning/thinking, turn down the heat, can't drive 400 miles, etc.). However, look realistically at your "needs" vs. "wants". If time is more important and you "need" to drive 70 mph, this car probably won't work. It already sounds like you time-shift your commute to minimize time spent in traffic but there is still a significant reduction in speed on the freeways. Personally, I don't see how you'll ever reach 60 mph average! Yes, I've driven that route and can attest to the mess. Oh, and hills will likely reduce the range and be harder on the battery over time. I would stick to the freeway and drive slower when required.

Most days (~150) will require no extra thought or planning. Some days (~20) you will have an unplanned errand and you may need to leave earlier, drive slower, charge during the day or at the errand location. Heck, you might even have to combine some errands so you can charge downtown, at the library, Walgreens, Fred Meyers, or maybe grocery store. A few days a year may actually require a sacrifice due to something really unexpected (and you forgot or didn't charge at work). Plan on that by having a nice book in the car at all times for that eventuality. There may even be a time or two that you have to say "No, I can't do it because I don't have enough charge". OK, it's probably not the end of the world (although if you had foreseen the crisis/circumstance in advance then you would have planned alternative charging). Even in bad weather, you can easily make the trip one-way. On those days, you plan on charging at work and pay a little extra, remembering the $1000s saved on gas. Also, it sounds as if you have the ability to telecommute. If possible, you should approach your boss about this possibility, especially during inclement weather.

Finally, the issue of battery degradation will eventually mean the ability to travel less than 80% of the distances available on a new battery. You should expect and plan for this. You have lots of choices, leasing, charging at work, charging in route, switching to another driver with a shorter commute, moving closer to work, etc. Be realistic with your situation. If this is your only car and there are no other drivers, then leasing may be your best option. If you don't mind driving slower or stopping en route when needed, then a purchase should be fine given the moderate climate. If charging at work is 100% guaranteed (don't expect this because soon there will be 10,000+ EVs in Portland), then you are covered either way.

If it were me, I'd go for it. Driving an EV is more enjoyable than any other car I've known. It actually makes driving in traffic enjoyable (although not as nice as bicycling on a 75 F day ). However, don't just take my word, do your homework and read everything you can on this forum.
Start with TaylorSFGuy who is our mileage leader from Seattle: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10386
His commute will give you a "worst case" distance in a similar climate. Good luck, and let us know!

Reddy

Thanks for all the great feedback on this thread. I think I've made my mind up to get a Leaf in the next year, despite the fact I will probably have to charge during the day.

I've had a couple of interesting discoveries on my own this last week. First off, I am incredibly lucky with the placement of quick-chargers along my commute. There's one just 1/2 a mile from my house at the local grocery store, another about 3 miles from my work along my normal commuting route, one right near my daughters school (right outside a coffee shop I often stop at for their WiFi and morning coffee) and another right near my parents house. That's basically all the places I drive to. I've been driving within 500ft of 3 different QCs every day!

While investigating the QC near my work, I met another leaf owner who had just charged up. It turns out he has a nearly identical commute and charges once a day in the winter. In the summer, he's able to make it all on one 80% charge. So all the good advice given here is born out in his experience.

--Harper

Excellent! Can you share one or two over here?

Harperhendee said:

Thanks for all the great feedback on this thread. I think I've made my mind up to get a Leaf in the next year, despite the fact I will probably have to charge during the day.

I've had a couple of interesting discoveries on my own this last week. First off, I am incredibly lucky with the placement of quick-chargers along my commute. There's one just 1/2 a mile from my house at the local grocery store, another about 3 miles from my work along my normal commuting route, one right near my daughters school (right outside a coffee shop I often stop at for their WiFi and morning coffee) and another right near my parents house. That's basically all the places I drive to. I've been driving within 500ft of 3 different QCs every day!

While investigating the QC near my work, I met another leaf owner who had just charged up. It turns out he has a nearly identical commute and charges once a day in the winter. In the summer, he's able to make it all on one 80% charge. So all the good advice given here is born out in his experience.

--Harper

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I'm glad you have several QCs close to your route, but I've got to wonder how quickly it would get old having to stop at one daily in winter, especially if you're paying exorbitant rates. It really depends on your motivation for getting an EV, but I'd say unless you can get convenient inexpensive charging at work, you probably shouldn't be using a Leaf for your commute. The 2013 may be somewhat better range-wise in your winter temps, but it's still likely to be a squeeze.

I'd say a Volt would be a better bet at the moment, if you like it otherwise. You can do your entire commute one-way on electric most of the year, will be able to do both directions that way if you get workplace charging, and never need have any anxiety if you have unexpected errands or emergencies come up, or need to choose between heat/defroster use or having to stop for a charge to get home. You will burn some gas in the winter and maybe late-fall/early spring, but it should be fairly minimal.

Those are good points you raise, GRA. And I realize I'm not the most ideal EV customer. But my motivation is primarily carbon footprint based. I've been driving this commute for nearly 5 years now and I am keenly aware of the nearly 2 gallons of gas I consume each day. "Move closer!" is the first thing that pops into mind, but that decision is not entirely mine to make, especially considering the great schools, church, and green space we have access to at our current locale.

I think the charging won't be quite so big a deal for me. On about 1/2 of my mornings, I drop off my daughter at 8:20 at her school, and then stop at a nearby coffee shop for WiFi to some cross-site work with teams in Israel and India while I wait for the traffic to die down a little. This is the same coffee shop is just 300 feet from a quick charging station! So basically, I've got numerous choices:

1) Fully charge and travel on 1 charge on a good weather day
2) Top off at the coffee shop while I do some remote work
3) Charge at my work when I arrive, then unplug over lunch
4) Charge at the QC near my work on my way home while picking up groceries or getting WiFi at the nearby coffee shop
5) Stop at one of charging stations on the commute home if I didn't calculate right. There are 3-4 along the mountain pass route, and many more along the highway.
6) If all else fails: Swap cars with my wife and take the Honda Civic Hybrid into work.

It is inconvenient, but then so is my commute. I figure I will spend between 5-30 minutes each day futzing with charging.

--Harper

Harperhendee said:

1) Fully charge and travel on 1 charge on a good weather day

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Probably 2/3 of the days. 80% charge at home in summer, 100% spring and fall. Use the car timer to be ready for departure, with preheat climate when cool enough. As the battery ages over the years, this fraction will drop. At battery End Of Life or 70% of capacity, probably well past 100,000 miles, you probably can still do this in summer, and will be charging at work or QCing someplace the rest of the time.

Harperhendee said:

2) Top off at the coffee shop while I do some remote work

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If this isn't far, you might not have discharged enough to make it worthwhile. Do note that best battery life guidelines suggest discharging to 80% before recharging. And QC beyond 80% I would suggest against on a usual basis. Slower, heats the battery more, etc.

Harperhendee said:

3) Charge at my work when I arrive, then unplug over lunch

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I suspect that this is the best choice, along one you didn't mention, which is plugging in after lunch when a station opens up. The closest charging station to my work is often busy midmorning.

Harperhendee said:

4) Charge at the QC near my work on my way home while picking up groceries or getting WiFi at the nearby coffee shop

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Depending on the length of stop, L2 might work here as well. You often may not need that much.

Harperhendee said:

5) Stop at one of charging stations on the commute home if I didn't calculate right. There are 3-4 along the mountain pass route, and many more along the highway.

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Probably hassle maximum. Nothing to do but wait.

Harperhendee said:

6) If all else fails: Swap cars with my wife and take the Honda Civic Hybrid into work.

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Sigh. Don't let the wife drive the Leaf, or you might be driving the Honda Civic Hybrid more than you planned on. In my case, she settled on Thursdays that she would get the Leaf. I consider myself very lucky. (and not just for this)

Harperhendee said:

It is inconvenient, but then so is my commute. I figure I will spend between 5-30 minutes each day futzing with charging.

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Counting the walk from the work charging station? I think your distribution of time will look something like this to start:

50% 10 seconds per day of plugging in when you get home and unplugging when you leave. This will be a joy.
40% 30 minutes of walking to the charge station and back which your heart doctor will be thrilled with... And if you don't have a heart doctor will keep you in that state.
9% seconds to a few minutes extra to add a charging stop while doing something else you already would have done like grocery shopping.
1% hassle. 30 minutes or even more.

The fractions will move as things change, such as new charging stations, more competition for the charging stations, wife getting an electric, you getting a heart doctor, the battery loses capacity, global warming, etc. How happy you are with the car will depend on keeping the hassle factor low enough and the joy factor high enough. Good luck, and thanks for reducing the carbon footprint.

+1 to everything Reddy said.

Motivation, willingness to be hassled by commute charging during winter & location of L2 & L3 charging. And holding out for a 2013 with the better heater and the 6kwh charging will make it much more pleasant.

Several of my friends/family think I will tire of charging when I drive to Nashville (80 miles away) but that's just because they don't understand how long I've waited to get a BEV and the LEAF is a fantastic car! Now, when one of you guys gives me a Tesla I'll rave about it, but they are WAY out of my price range.

Philip

WetEV said:

Harperhendee said:

2) Top off at the coffee shop while I do some remote work

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If this isn't far, you might not have discharged enough to make it worthwhile. Do note that best battery life guidelines suggest discharging to 80% before recharging. And QC beyond 80% I would suggest against on a usual basis. Slower, heats the battery more, etc.

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I think you may be right there. Its only about 11 miles from my home, probably not enough to make much of a difference. But it does make a nice emergency stop if I'm low coming home.

WetEV said:

Harperhendee said:

3) Charge at my work when I arrive, then unplug over lunch

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I suspect that this is the best choice, along one you didn't mention, which is plugging in after lunch when a station opens up. The closest charging station to my work is often busy midmorning.

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I'm thinking the same. Every day I arrive around 10:00am and leave for lunch around noon. Most days I like to get off campus to one of the nearby restaurants. There's plenty of stations at the office. A full 8 charging bays, and I've never seen more than 3 occupied at once, regardless of the time of day since they started charging fees. That $1.20/hour is just too steep for what you are getting.

WetEV said:

Harperhendee said:

4) Charge at the QC near my work on my way home while picking up groceries or getting WiFi at the nearby coffee shop

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Depending on the length of stop, L2 might work here as well. You often may not need that much.

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We do most of our shopping at Fred Meyer, and they have QCs as well as L2s there. I'm not sure if there is a price break using L2 instead of QC.

WetEV said:

Harperhendee said:

5) Stop at one of charging stations on the commute home if I didn't calculate right. There are 3-4 along the mountain pass route, and many more along the highway.

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Probably hassle maximum. Nothing to do but wait.

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Indeed! This is mainly to address the concern of being stuck half-way. I really want to avoid the situation of having to waste an hour on my way home.

WetEV said:

Harperhendee said:

6) If all else fails: Swap cars with my wife and take the Honda Civic Hybrid into work.

Click to expand...

Sigh. Don't let the wife drive the Leaf, or you might be driving the Honda Civic Hybrid more than you planned on. In my case, she settled on Thursdays that she would get the Leaf. I consider myself very lucky. (and not just for this)

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Well, she's already looking forward to the Hybrid after using the Odyssey all these years, but no doubt the Leaf will look even more enticing!

WetEV said:

Harperhendee said:

It is inconvenient, but then so is my commute. I figure I will spend between 5-30 minutes each day futzing with charging.

Click to expand...

Counting the walk from the work charging station? I think your distribution of time will look something like this to start:

50% 10 seconds per day of plugging in when you get home and unplugging when you leave. This will be a joy.
40% 30 minutes of walking to the charge station and back which your heart doctor will be thrilled with... And if you don't have a heart doctor will keep you in that state.
9% seconds to a few minutes extra to add a charging stop while doing something else you already would have done like grocery shopping.
1% hassle. 30 minutes or even more.

The fractions will move as things change, such as new charging stations, more competition for the charging stations, wife getting an electric, you getting a heart doctor, the battery loses capacity, global warming, etc. How happy you are with the car will depend on keeping the hassle factor low enough and the joy factor high enough. Good luck, and thanks for reducing the carbon footprint.

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Thanks for the comments, I just need to figure out where the money is coming from and where I want to install a home charger. Inside the garage is better, but realistically, the garage ends up too filled up to park in most of the time.

--Harper

Harperhendee said:

.....I'm thinking the same. Every day I arrive around 10:00am and leave for lunch around noon. Most days I like to get off campus to one of the nearby restaurants. There's plenty of stations at the office. A full 8 charging bays, and I've never seen more than 3 occupied at once, regardless of the time of day since they started charging fees. That $1.20/hour is just too steep for what you are getting.

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There's your answer. 2 hrs x 6 KW = 12 KWH or 50% of the battery. You may even need to charge to LESS than 80% when leaving home. Soon, those 8 bays will be filled with EVs. You'll need to share eventually and others will thank you for only using 2 hrs.

Harperhendee said:

We do most of our shopping at Fred Meyer, and they have QCs as well as L2s there. I'm not sure if there is a price break using L2 instead of QC.

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Alas, FM has the blinking Blinks. Hope they get them fixed eventually. They will charge for both, probably much more than $1.20/hr.

Harperhendee said:

6) If all else fails: Swap cars with my wife and take the Honda Civic Hybrid into work.

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No, never or you won't see it again.

Harperhendee said:

Inside the garage is better, but realistically, the garage ends up too filled up to park in most of the time.

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I don't have to worry about all that "stuff" you wetsiders deal with (plenty of other threads on that but humidity inside the vehicle seems to be the problem), but I love parking in the garage. No snow/ice/scraping and pre-heated every morning. This is the BEST part. My commute is less than 5 miles and my old ICE never warmed up on the drive. It's been between 15-25 F for a month now and I haven't had to bundle up like I'm snow skiing just to drive!

Oh, clean out the garage and enjoy your life. Does it really make sense storing $500 of junk in the garage and parking a $30,000 vehicle outside?

Reddy