A/C and range

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Bicster

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
579
Location
Houston, TX
I searched around and expected to find some good topics on this already, but I didn't.

How much range is lost to A/C? Does the A/C have different levels of power consumption? In Houston it's pretty much guaranteed that A/C or heat will be running all year around. Should I expect a fresh car to deliver closer to a 50-mile range, with that in mind?
 
The power used for AC is quite low, variable, and typically only a couple hundred watts once the car is cooled down. It's actually very efficient and I'd not worry about it much.

Bicster said:
How much range is lost to A/C? Does the A/C have different levels of power consumption? In Houston it's pretty much guaranteed that A/C or heat will be running all year around. Should I expect a fresh car to deliver closer to a 50-mile range, with that in mind?
 
Some days a car in this climate will never cool down, and needs A/C running max at all times. 10% seems reasonable. Thanks!
 
Bicster said:
Some days a car in this climate will never cool down, and needs A/C running max at all times. 10% seems reasonable. Thanks!
You can mitigate some of this hit by pre-cooling your car while it's plugged in... If the bulk of the cooling is already done, all the A/C has to do is maintain it.
 
mwalsh said:
keydiver said:
In South Florida I find that it depends on how hot it is outside. On some very hot and humid days I see as much as a 10% hit.
I'm thinking it likely that a good part of your hit may be down to more dense air and not the A/C.
Hot, humid air is less dense than cooler or less humid air.
 
Bicster said:
I searched around and expected to find some good topics on this already, but I didn't.

How much range is lost to A/C? Does the A/C have different levels of power consumption? In Houston it's pretty much guaranteed that A/C or heat will be running all year around. Should I expect a fresh car to deliver closer to a 50-mile range, with that in mind?

Some people take A/C to mean cooling. The LEAF's cooling is very efficient.

Other people take A/C to mean heating AND cooling; from your post it looks like you may be one of them. In which case it's important to know that in current models the LEAF heater can draw a LOT of power. That can be mitigated by pre-heating, use of Eco, and simply by keeping the temperature setting as low as possible. But heating can significantly affect range. Even more so if you are stuck in traffic jams where the heater works away while you're gaining no miles.

Beginning in 2013 the car uses a heat-pump for heating which appears to be much more efficient.

But as far as range, it all depends on how MUCH heating and cooling you want vs. what you're willing to live with, vs. how far you want to go, vs. how much you're willing to alter your driving style. You can:
a) go fast
b) go far
c) use lots of heating/cooling

Pick any 2. Or if you really want to stretch range, pick "b" only.

Yesterday I made a round trip of 135 miles, all freeway, in temperatures ranging from 29F to 39F. There was an L2 at my destination. For both legs I arrived at my destination with 2 bars remaining. Other than pre-heating at home I used heat VERY sparingly (almost none other than heated steering wheel and heated seat). I also drove very conservatively (for the most part traffic saw to that :) ).

My car is a 2012 and I've owned it for just over a year, with 10,000 miles.
 
mwalsh said:
keydiver said:
In South Florida I find that it depends on how hot it is outside. On some very hot and humid days I see as much as a 10% hit.

I'm thinking it likely that a good part of your hit may be down to more dense air and not the A/C.

air density is more controlled by altitude so will be pretty much static. high humidity actually lowers the density of the air and therefore should provide less resistance.

but as everyone has said; the AC hit is minor. Even on the hottest days here (ya, it does get that way occasionally despite being in the ONLY state that did not receive record warmth in 2012) the power draw might hit 2 KW for 10 minutes until the car is cooled and then it drops to less than 1 KW.

so if driving an hour you might lose 3-4 miles of range which is pretty small...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
mwalsh said:
keydiver said:
In South Florida I find that it depends on how hot it is outside. On some very hot and humid days I see as much as a 10% hit.

I'm thinking it likely that a good part of your hit may be down to more dense air and not the A/C.

air density is more controlled by altitude so will be pretty much static. high humidity actually lowers the density of the air and therefore should provide less resistance.

Holy SMOKES Guys !!!

I know I've covered this air density thing MANY times.

Hot air is LESS dense (at the same altitude) than colder air. Air density is not "pretty much static" at the same elevation!!!!

Here's a calculator to help understand the effects:

http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In general, as to the LEAF with non-temperature controlled batteries (that don't consume the air like an oil burning car or airplane), ambient heat will have the following effects (assuming same elevation):

1. The battery will INCREASE in capacity with temps over 70F. My rule of thumb is 1% per 8F over 70F. Therefore, in 102F ambient heat (that also had enough time to heat the battery to that temperature), you can expect 102-70 = 32 / 8 = 4% greater capacity. Guys that drag race EV's actually bake or otherwise heat the batteries to get increased performance. Cold batteries are much more severely impacted, with 1% loss of capacity for every 4F below 70F. That means that a brand new LEAF that would have 21kWh of usable battery at 70F at SEA LEVEL elevation will travel about 84 miles at 4 miles/kWh at 65mph indicated will now have the battery capacity to travel 21kWh + (21kWh * 4%) = 21.84kWh * 4 miles/kWh = 87.36 miles of range autonomy (again, assuming 70F air temperature at sea level; this scenario is plausible with DC quick charging that can provide a significantly hotter battery).

2. Heat will increase range due to a decrease in air density, and the effective "density altitude" can be calculated with the above calculator. Generally speaking, I would use a rule of thumb of 1% increase in range per 1000 feet increase in "density altitude". That means that a brand new LEAF at 21kWh of usable battery at 70F at SEA LEVEL elevation will travel about 84 miles at 4 miles/kWh at 65mph indicated. At the same speed, at 3500 feet density altitude (102F with 29.92 inch Hg air pressure and 102F dew point) will gain about 3.5% increase in range at the same 65mph, so about 87 miles of range autonomy with a magically still 70F battery temperature with a car at sea level (generally unrealistic scenario of hot ambient air but "cold" battery, but instructive for the demonstration).

3. The combination of a 102F hot battery and a 102F hot ambient air in the above examples at a constant 65mph would yield a total of 90.42 miles total range, vice 84 miles for 70F ambient air and batteries. First, we factor the 87.36 mile range for increased battery capacity from heat that is then multiplied by 3.5% for decreased air density of 3500 feet density altitude equals an additional 3.06 miles, for 90.42 miles total range. Just to clarify, the economy would increase to 4.14miles/kWh at 65mph indicated multiplied by the new battery capacity of 21.84kWh to equal 90.42 miles.

4. There will be a decrease in ECONOMY with heater or air conditioner use. This, of course, is difficult to determine with the less than stellar tools available on the LEAF, however the air conditioner / heat pump is relatively efficient, therefore I think a 15% hit to economy is logical at 102F, so 4.14miles/kWh minus (4.14 * .15) = 3.52 miles/kWh economy at the same 65mph with the air conditioner running with a 102F battery and 102F ambient air and 102F dew point at sea level elevation with a new, zero degraded battery. That equals 3.52 miles/kWh * 21.84kWh = 76.9 miles range, or about 9% effective loss or range autonomy from 84 miles of range at 70F in this example.

5. Your battery will degrade in high ambient heat areas. This means that your shiny new car with a 21kWh usable battery capacity at 70F will not have 21kWh available in one year. Please factor that into your range calculations, since that singular issue is likely to have the GREATEST impact to range in high heat areas. We have already measured up to 30% reduced range from battery degradation in Phoenix.
 
i admit "static" is wrong and TY for clarifying that. my comment was more to inform the OP that his concerns on loss was not due to air density
 
keydiver said:
In South Florida I find that it depends on how hot it is outside. On some very hot and humid days I see as much as a 10% hit.
10% of what? Of indicated energy economy (mi/kW)? Of the GOM range?

Bicster said:
Some days a car in this climate will never cool down, and needs A/C running max at all times. 10% seems reasonable. Thanks!
I'm in Austin. In my experience, on uber hot days, after parked in full sun for many hours, the A/C will draw 2+ kW for a while (more than 10 minutes) but then it'd usually settle down to drawing less than 0.5 kW (as indicated on the "Energy Info" display). This much is clear: for me, any inefficiency from using the A/C is dwarfed by the variations in energy economy figures from driving in hilly terrains around here. In Houston, it might be more noticeable...
 
Holy SMOKES Guys !!!

I know I've covered this air density thing MANY times.

Hot air is LESS dense (at the same altitude) than colder air. Air density is not "pretty much static" at the same elevation!!!!

Here's a calculator to help understand the effects:

http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In general, as to the LEAF with non-temperature controlled batteries (that don't consume the air like an oil burning car or airplane), ambient heat will have the following effects (assuming same elevation):

1. The battery will INCREASE in capacity with temps over 70F. My rule of thumb is 1% per 8F over 70F. Therefore, in 102F ambient heat (that also had enough time to heat the battery to that temperature), you can expect 102-70 = 32 / 8 = 4% greater capacity. Guys that drag race EV's actually bake or otherwise heat the batteries to get increased performance. Cold batteries are much more severely impacted, with 1% loss of capacity for every 4F below 70F. That means that a brand new LEAF that would have 21kWh of usable battery at 70F at SEA LEVEL elevation will travel about 84 miles at 4 miles/kWh at 65mph indicated will now have the battery capacity to travel 21kWh + (21kWh * 4%) = 21.84kWh * 4 miles/kWh = 87.36 miles of range autonomy (again, assuming 70F air temperature at sea level; this scenario is plausible with DC quick charging that can provide a significantly hotter battery).

2. Heat will increase range due to a decrease in air density, and the effective "density altitude" can be calculated with the above calculator. Generally speaking, I would use a rule of thumb of 1% increase in range per 1000 feet increase in "density altitude". That means that a brand new LEAF at 21kWh of usable battery at 70F at SEA LEVEL elevation will travel about 84 miles at 4 miles/kWh at 65mph indicated. At the same speed, at 3500 feet density altitude (102F with 29.92 inch Hg air pressure and 102F dew point) will gain about 3.5% increase in range at the same 65mph, so about 87 miles of range autonomy with a magically still 70F battery temperature with a car at sea level (generally unrealistic scenario of hot ambient air but "cold" battery, but instructive for the demonstration).

3. The combination of a 102F hot battery and a 102F hot ambient air in the above examples at a constant 65mph would yield a total of 90.42 miles total range, vice 84 miles for 70F ambient air and batteries. First, we factor the 87.36 mile range for increased battery capacity from heat that is then multiplied by 3.5% for decreased air density of 3500 feet density altitude equals an additional 3.06 miles, for 90.42 miles total range. Just to clarify, the economy would increase to 4.14miles/kWh at 65mph indicated multiplied by the new battery capacity of 21.84kWh to equal 90.42 miles.

4. There will be a decrease in ECONOMY with heater or air conditioner use. This, of course, is difficult to determine with the less than stellar tools available on the LEAF, however the air conditioner / heat pump is relatively efficient, therefore I think a 15% hit to economy is logical at 102F, so 4.14miles/kWh minus (4.14 * .15) = 3.52 miles/kWh economy at the same 65mph with the air conditioner running with a 102F battery and 102F ambient air and 102F dew point at sea level elevation with a new, zero degraded battery. That equals 3.52 miles/kWh * 21.84kWh = 76.9 miles range, or about 9% effective loss or range autonomy from 84 miles of range at 70F in this example.

5. Your battery will degrade in high ambient heat areas. This means that your shiny new car with a 21kWh usable battery capacity at 70F will not have 21kWh available in one year. Please factor that into your range calculations, since that singular issue is likely to have the GREATEST impact to range in high heat areas. We have already measured up to 30% reduced range from battery degradation in Phoenix.
Totally agree. Driving my 2012 leaf (11bars 81.55% SOH) into my first warmer months and I already starts to see increase range(km/kWh) and increase SOH. I get around 8km/kWh @85-95kph speed, Sometimes more, depending on wind direction and elevation.But in cold winter months ,I struggle to get about 5.5/6km per kWh.
 
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