Car Can Be Unintentionally Put in Neutral While Plugged In

Important edit: This design flaw has apparently been fixed in the latest software update, and some posters who report being able to reproduce it are no longer seeing it after getting software updated.

Note: edited title

I have run into what I believe is a small design flaw.

Scenario:

1) Leaf is parked in condo parking garage with gentle uphill slope on parking space
2) Forget the Leaf is still plugged in to AV EVSE L2
3) Put foot on brake, push start button
4) Shift into reverse, not looking at dash screen to see warning that Leaf won't start
5) Press down on parking brake lever to disengage parking brake
6) Press accelerator

Result:

The Leaf doesn't start since it is still plugged in to EVSE. Once parking brake is off and foot is on accelerator, there is nothing to keep the Leaf from rolling back. If it rolls far enough it will damage either the L2 connector to the car or the EVSE or both.

Comment:

This is not a hypothetical, it has happened to me 3-4 times in the last year. Fortunately, I quickly realized things weren't right each time and applied the brake so that no damage was done. In my opinion, you should NOT be able to release the parking brake while the Leaf is still plugged in.

Has this happened to anyone else, or am I the only one?

Since many people do not even apply the Parking Brake,
it should also be impossible to shift out of Park while plugged in?

garygid said:

Since many people do not even apply the Parking Brake,
it should also be impossible to shift out of Park while plugged in?

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Yes, that should also be impossible. I believe that what happens in my scenario is that the Leaf ends up in Neutral, which is why the car rolls. Apparently you can't shift into reverse without the Leaf being on, so the car goes into Neutral instead.

The last time this was discussed the conclusion was that EVSEs should be (and many are) designed so the cable will disconnect from the EVSE. But I agree with garygid. The parking brake has nothing to do with the problem. The parking pawl is automatically engaged when you turn off the car, and there should be no way to disengage it while plugged in. Moving the shift lever should have no effect at all.

Ray

Also discussed in a lengthier thread here...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=173801#p173801" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps the better thread title should be "Car can be unintentionally put in Neutral while still plugged in".

So no one else has run into this problem? Just me?

said gently for humorous effect:

engage brain before operating machinery.

planet4ever said:

The last time this was discussed the conclusion was that EVSEs should be (and many are) designed so the cable will disconnect from the EVSE.

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While that sounds good on paper, in reality that is often not a practical solution. For instance, I can imagine an Upgraded EVSE locked into a receptacle ripping said receptacle from the wall as the car drifts away. This approach also does not address the obvious issue of a car rolling down a hill, potentially without a driver.

I agree the locking pawl needs to stay engaged whenever the car is plugged in.

thankyouOB said:

said gently for humorous effect:

engage brain before operating machinery.

Click to expand...

I do both, but in the reverse order: operate machinery, engage brain immediately if problem occurs. :lol: My guess is that there are others less savvy than I--or more distracted--have or will run into this problem. However, I have no data from this forum to support my hypothesis.

PS An additional factor that makes it easier to run into this problem (besides being totally preoccuppied with other things) is to have the startup sound for the Leaf turned off.

It has never been an issue for me since I have a nearly level garage floor... But I agree that it is clearly a bug and a safety issue that should be addressed.

Stoaty said:

So no one else has run into this problem? Just me?

Click to expand...

I'm not eligible for this, since my garage floor is level. I suspect many others' are, too.

Under other circumstances, I might just discover what you did.

Reported to Nissan as a potential safety issue. Here is email text:

"I have run into what I believe is a small design flaw.

Scenario:

1) Leaf is parked in condo parking garage with gentle uphill slope on parking space
2) Startup sound is turned OFF
2) Forget the Leaf is still plugged in to AV EVSE L2
3) Put foot on brake, push start button
4) Shift into reverse, not looking at dash screen to see warning that Leaf won't start
5) Press down on parking brake lever to disengage parking brake
6) Press accelerator

Result:

The Leaf doesn't start since it is still plugged in to EVSE. The Leaf shifts out of Park into Neutral after step #4. Once parking brake is off and foot is on accelerator, there is nothing to keep the Leaf from rolling back. If it rolls far enough it will damage either the L2 connector to the car or the EVSE or both.

Comment:

This is not a hypothetical, it has happened to me 3-4 times in the last year. Fortunately, I quickly realized things weren't right each time and applied the brake so that no damage was done. In my opinion, you should NOT be able to shift the Leaf out of Park or release the parking brake while the Leaf is still plugged in. I would suggest changing the design for future Leafs."

my garage is like everyone elses around here. it has an imperceptible slope towards the door in case of rain. its not much because very heavy rain will not collect in the garage but does not drain extremely well either but marbles do roll out if let within 4 feet of the door.

my driveway is EXTREMELY sloped (also pretty normal around here. situated between two lakes so high water can be an issue. the streets may flood but the house is safe) to the point that i will roll backwards in a forward gear

I have not had a problem with this, but it has occurred to me that this is a dangerous possibility. I have the startup sound turned off (because it's annoying) and it can be easy to mistakenly believe that the car has been turned on when it actually has not because it is still plugged in. If you were in a hurry, you might jump in, "start" the car, throw it in "reverse" and try to go. In my case, I would disengage the parking brake, as my driveway is sloped. At this point, the car would start to roll as described by the OP, and this would even appear to be "normal." That is, until you would hear the sound of the EVSE cable being wrenched out of the charge port. This would probably damage the charge port and/or the EVSE connector.

Once I realized this was a possibility, I make a point of checking that the car is in reverse and not neutral before leaving.

JustinC said:

I have not had a problem with this, but it has occurred to me that this is a dangerous possibility. I have the startup sound turned off (because it's annoying) and it can be easy to mistakenly believe that the car has been turned on when it actually has not because it is still plugged in. If you were in a hurry, you might jump in, "start" the car, throw it in "reverse" and try to go. In my case, I would disengage the parking brake, as my driveway is sloped. At this point, the car would start to roll as described by the OP, and this would even appear to be "normal." That is, until you would hear the sound of the EVSE cable being wrenched out of the charge port. This would probably damage the charge port and/or the EVSE connector.

Once I realized this was a possibility, I make a point of checking that the car is in reverse and not neutral before leaving.

Click to expand...

"Dangerous possibility"?? Might be a good idea to make sure the EVSE cord is disconnected before you "jump in"---providing you didn't trip over it on your way to the driver's door. :roll:

derkraut said:

"Dangerous possibility"?? Might be a good idea to make sure the EVSE cord is disconnected before you "jump in"---providing you didn't trip over it on your way to the driver's door. :roll:

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Dangerous or not, it is a bug, and it is an easy software fix. They already have the logic so that you cannot put it into drive or reverse, but it currently puts it into neutral instead. It should remain in park. This seems to be some safety logic. If you are going forward and put it in reverse it puts it in neutral, if you are going in reverse and put it in forward it puts it in neutral. If the EVSE is plugged in and you select either one, it puts it in neutral. The last bit needs to be changed so that it simply leaves the car in park instead of going to neutral. Neutral should be able to be selected if you want that position, and that can be done by holding it for a couple of seconds just like you do if you want neutral when you are driving.

derkraut said:

"Dangerous possibility"?? Might be a good idea to make sure the EVSE cord is disconnected before you "jump in"---providing you didn't trip over it on your way to the driver's door. :roll:

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Of course it is a good idea, one which I have followed 99% of the time. It's that other 1% that has me concerned. I approach my Leaf from the back after getting out of the elevator (I know, I should have an elevator for for my car like Mitt Romney, but it's the best I can do ). The Leaf itself blocks the view of the charge port, and I can't even see the AV EVSE to see if the "nozzle" is docked there unless I am checking carefully and at the right angle. One disadvantage of being so familiar with the Leaf is that once I forget to check whether the Leaf is plugged in, the rest is on auto pilot leading to the problem. Now that it has happened several times I am a lot more careful to check to see if the Leaf is still connected.

On a related note, I once experienced a similar problem in a grocery store parking lot. Got into my Leaf, which was on a gentle downward slope. Turned the Leaf on (or so I thought), put it in reverse, and started backing out. Somehow the Leaf had not been turned on (didn't press down on the brake properly?), so it went into neutral and started rolling forward. I frantically pushed down on the accelerator--nothing happened. Realized there was a problem, hit the brake... but not before I rolled into a shopping cart in front of my car. Fortunately, I stopped soon enough and the shopping cart just hit my front license plate holder and no damage was done to my Leaf. I think there are only two good solutions to this problem:

1) Leaf can only be put into neutral when car is not turned on by pushing shifter to the left and holding it there for a second or two. There is no reason that trying to shift into reverse while car is in accessory mode should put the car in neutral

2) Replace the original driver with an upgraded model. :lol:

We should start a thread entitled " who backs into the garage?" Or "who does not walk past the charging port on their way to the car?"

"4) Shift into reverse, not looking at dash screen to see warning that Leaf won't start"


User error, period.

In an ICE, don't look down to see if car is in "R" or "D", push gas, hit garage door. When you start 3400 lb. motor vehicle it makes sense to be sure it is in "gear" before letting off the brake pedal or the parking brake, basic driving skills! Cord or no cord. There is noting unintentional about this just like "unintentionally" driving away from a gas pump while the nozzle is in the car. It is simply sloppy driving skills and applies to any motor vehicle. When one learns to drive they teach these basic starting skills not "the car will monitor all your mistakes, only pay attention if you feel like it"

By the way anyone that has a back up camera also knows that if the camera is not on the screen the car is NOT in reverse. It's that small 7" screen on the dash. :roll:

User errors:

1) Did not confirm car was in run mode
2) Did not confirm car was in "R", if coasting back confirm again car is running
3) Look at back up camera to confirm car is in reverse
4) Consider checking the cord when entering the car, if you can't then pay attention to earlier points

Lot's of bugs there but not in the car :lol:

EVDRIVER said:

"4) Shift into reverse, not looking at dash screen to see warning that Leaf won't start"

User error, period.

1) Did not confirm car was in run mode
2) Did not confirm car was in "R", if coasting back confirm again car is running
3) Look at back up camera to confirm car is in reverse
4) Consider checking the cord when entering the car, if you can't then pay attention to earlier points

Lot's of bugs there but not in the car :lol:

Click to expand...

Of course this is due to user error, never said differently. I said it is a design flaw to allow the user to be able to do this. I don't have a backup camera. The point is that there is no good reason for the Leaf to allow this to happen. There is an easy software fix. If it has happened to one person, wait until there are hundreds of thousands of Leafs on the road (hope we get that far) and watch what happens when a bunch of non-tech savvy users start driving. This is a problem waiting to happen, one that can easily be prevented.