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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:10 am 
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spike09 wrote:
Don't forget Chevy was not really that forthcoming with the battery pack fire risk. They informed the public of the problem only after the government started a safety defect investigation. The NHTSA informed them about the problem in June 2011. Chevy did nothing until the NHTSA opened a formal safety defect investigation on Nov 25. They kept the problem hidden for 6 months and were lucky no actual real-world incidents occurred. It took them over a month to come up with a fix for a serious safety issue.

Thank you for clarifying that.

spike09 wrote:
The comparison between the Volt serious safety issue to the Leaf battery capacity loss is weak. A better comparison of the Chevy Volt fires would be to the Fiskar Karma fires, although the battery pack does not seem to be issue with the Karma.

Please understand that I was not making a qualitative comparison between the severity of the two problems. That wouldn't make any sense. All I wanted to highlight was the approach taken to quell fear, doubt and uncertainty once the problem broke the news and it was in everyone's mouth.

spike09 wrote:
It does not seem the Leaf issues even qualify as a defect under the Lemon Law! Perhaps we need specific EV legislation to address Battery Capacity issues!

Right, this is becoming more and more apparent. Additionally, manufacturers should not be allowed to market any other range figure but what a standardized EPA test has determined. I'm sure that there are other things that might require proper disclosure, such as the effect of local climate on batteries. We have already seen that with the Prius, where owners in hot locales are getting half or third of the mileage out of their packs compared to more temperate areas. Mind you, the pack is often way past its warranty, yet some folks appear to be dissatisfied because they were not told upfront.

edatoakrun wrote:
And I would find this outcome quite possibly a much greater disappointment, a few years from now, than if my LEAF loses capacity somewhat faster than I expected, when I bought it.

Well said. While I share your concerns, I'm a bit more hopeful that this can be resolved with a constructive approach from all sides.

OrientExpress wrote:
While I am not a "tool" of Nissan, I do understand how the process of resolving an issue such as this works, and again I have full confidence that Nissan will resolve this issue in a fair and equitable manner, and will use it as a learning experience to improve their EV products.

I don't know if I'm the only one who appreciates your experience with auto manufacturers. That said, I don't see a reason to insult forum contributors just to get the message across.


Last edited by surfingslovak on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:23 am 
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
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edatoakrun wrote:
I am most concerned that Nissan might alter future BEV sales plans, after concluding that American BEV buyers simply are incapable of understanding the trade-offs, in battery life, and battery use, of vehicle batteries, and cannot exercise judgement in their driving and charging habits, to get their own particular optimum use from their batteries.

Nissan and other BEV manufactures may even move to "idiot-proof" future EV designs for the American market, and take much the same approach GM did with the Volt.
You can't expect buyers to own up to a complicated charging process and driving habits if you don't provide them with enough information in the owner's manual to teach them how to do it right in the first place. If Nissan starts out by treating owners like idiots, then idiot-proofing becomes necessary. You reap what you sow.

Having said that, idiot-proofing is almost necessary when it comes to selling cars. And I don't think it's limited to just the American market. Human nature is the same everywhere.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:26 am 
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agree with edatoakrun and others.
If fact, I encourage everyone to go and read what Ed said about smart EV driving and the downside of NIssan concluding that Americans are too dumb to handle the truth about their batteries.
I prefer the choice of a economical alternative that fits my situation; no heated wheel, no heated seats, no AC or water-based TMS for the battery.

I dont buy snow tires and dont need four-wheel drive as I dont drive in the snow and dont drive off road.
I dont need a pickup bed for hauling rocks, so dont have a pickup truck.

That, of course, doesnt obviate the need for clarity from Nissan about the battery up and down sides.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:32 am 
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Location: Tyler TX
Delivery Date: 22 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 5086
TonyWilliams wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:
Well granted this owners group does seem to have a few more very vocal and seemingly hysterical schizophrenic ADD owners than other marques :D , but on the whole, they don't represent the vast majority of LEAF owners.


You appear to be a doctor now, making a diagnosis. Listen, obviously MOST LEAF owners don't know or care about something that doesn't affect them directly. That's the human existence. You're a good example. You have your car that is working well for you, and you're obviously happy with it, and it's just tough doo doo for those that don't have the same.


Quote:
Other than assigning wet nurses to the most vocal and impatient of those that are dissatisfied, it is hard to say what more than can be done.


Thank you for being the "tool" that every forum needs. I'd recommend putting me on your ignore list, because you are an absolute waste of internet space.



Sweet, I will bring the Popcorn , this will be a great show :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:33 am 
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OrientExpress wrote:
But still, essentially all of the options that are available to any vehicle owner that are dissatisfied with their car are on the table for LEAF owners.

They can:
Let the manufacturer fix the problem
They can sell or trade-in the car for another one
They can take advantage of their states Lemon Law statutes to recover a pro-rated amount of their investment in the car
They can attempt litigation

While I am not a "tool" of Nissan, I do understand how the process of resolving an issue such as this works, and again I have full confidence that Nissan will resolve this issue in a fair and equitable manner, and will use it as a learning experience to improve their EV products.


Rational thought. Thanks. Yes, this thread covers all that, and I've summarized those issues in the first post.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:34 am 
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spike09 wrote:
It took them over a month to come up with a fix for a serious safety issue.
Many think there is no comparison to how GM has handled "problems" compared to NISSAN. It was a lab test of a 20 MPH side pole impact in a specific area and happened 3 weeks later in a bone yard and only after manually rotating the vehicle. Karma situations are a different situation altogether -- no crash even. See NHTSAs comments below. Many never got the battery tunnel enh done. I had it done when I got my tires rotated in case it comes up in 10 years if I sell it. It was done promptly and I was given a free rental. The Volt is my first Chevrolet product and GM has impressed me in many ways.

Quote:
In describing the incident, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration stated:

"NHTSA has concluded that the crash test damaged the Volt's lithium ion battery and that the damage led to a vehicle fire that took several weeks to develop after the test was completed. That incident—which occurred at the test facility and caused property damage but no injuries—remains the only case of a battery-related fire in a crash or crash test of vehicles powered by lithium-ion batteries, despite a number of other rigorous crash tests of the Chevy Volt separately conducted by both NHTSA and General Motors."

The NHTSA then released this statement regarding the safety of electric vehicles:

"Based on the available data, NHTSA does not believe the Volt or other electric vehicles are at a greater risk of fire than gasoline-powered vehicles. In fact, all vehicles—both electric and gasoline-powered—have some risk of fire in the event of a serious crash. As manufacturers continue to develop vehicles of any kind—electric, gasoline, or diesel—it is critical that they take the necessary steps to ensure the safety of drivers and first responders both during and after a crash."


I hope Nissan comes through "quickly" because the masses will equate these shortened battery life issues with all *EVs and that's good for no one.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:34 am 
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mksE55 wrote:
Sweet, I will bring the Popcorn , this will be a great show :mrgreen:


You guys are too easy !!!!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:44 am 
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Ed, the problems here have nothing to do with battery care and/or charging. We've already established that with facts. Please stop beating a dead horse.
Somewhat faster??? Surely you jest. Losing as much range as a lot of 2 and 3 bar losers have is much more than "somewhat faster."

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:52 am 
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surfingslovak wrote:
spike09 wrote:
It does not seem the Leaf issues even qualify as a defect under the Lemon Law! Perhaps we need specific EV legislation to address Battery Capacity issues!

Right, this is becoming more and more apparent. Additionally, manufacturers should not be allowed to market any other range figure but what a standardized EPA test has determined. I'm sure that there are other things that might require proper disclosure, such as the effect of local climate on batteries.


I'm confident that every LEAF owner who tried their state's Lemon Law for specifically battery capacity (with the LEAF, not a Volt or other EV's with capacity warranties) will lose. Warranty says not covered, end of story.

That is why I suggest that the battery not be addressed at all in such a forum. We, as consumers, don't care what a battery is doing, any more than we care how a camshaft works. What is not disclosed by Nissan to consumers is hot areas, like Phoenix, is that the PERFORMANCE of the vehicle will permanently degrade the RANGE of the vehicle at a rate FAR greater than those in temperate climates, like San Francisco, Seattle and San Diego. Notice that I said RANGE and PERFORMANCE.

Obviously, this angle does not guarantee much, either. The end solution will have to be legislation to protect consumers from companies like Nissan.

First, somebody must ask themselves what their end game is. For me, I want to see EVs succeed, and soon. Nissan could quite conceivably put a really big dent in that movement, or just make it a speed bump. This issue really is that pivotal, in my opinion.

For individual consumers, if you just want your money back, I'd probably start as simply as calling and seeing if you can turn it in. Apparently, Nissan will take back leases under certain parameters. You don't even need to get into the range or batteries. Just tell them it doesn't work for you. Try CarMax for your owned vehicle, as I did.

If those don't work, your state's Lemon Law is cheap to use. Even if you lose, there's not much lost except some of your time. Then you get into the legal areas, and those are generally individual suits or class action. Believe me, there are lawyers circling for either of these.

Lastly, is Nissan fixes your car to your satisfaction.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:04 pm 
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May be some of those people with "dogs in the hunt" will be proven right but with ambient temps in the high 100s, by the time a fix (or excuse) is given, all of the "dogs" will be dead. There's a reason they don't have fox hunts in the desert southwest, the fox (in this case Nissan) would always get away.


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