LeftieBiker
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:07 pm

So, just to be clear: we can't talk about capacity loss in the 2011-21012 Leaf as it compares to the early 2013 and 4/13+ Leafs, and you also want the last word on that subject? Got it!
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sub3marathonman
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:16 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
dm33 wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
Nissan reps and executives have said on more than one occasion that the 2013 rev was a packaging change more than a chemistry change and that the 2013 packs didn't change chemistry significantly.

Enormous epirical evidence clearly shows that chemistry was improved around April 2013. Batteries after that time degrade MUCH slower than those before.

We had a early 2013 that was totaled and replaced with a later 2013. It was day and night difference. The early 2013 degraded more in 6 months and 6,000 miles than the second car did in almost 3 years and 36,000 miles.


No, empirical evidence shows that degradation was reduced after build dates of 04/13. Chemistry is not the only thing that could be changed. Nissan stated that chemistry did not change significantly so it's reasonable to assume it's another factor or factors.

Again this is off topic in this thread and should be taken to another thread if you wish to continue discussing it.


IF that is true, and there really was no "significant" chemistry change, only "another factor or factors," it would seem logical that the 2011-2012 and early 2013 batteries could benefit with lesser degradation if one or more of these unknown and unmentioned by Nissan factors could be applied to these early batteries. And isn't Nissan thus penalizing early adopters by not telling them how they could save their batteries? Or is Nissan being a bit less than truthful (remember the "around 70%" in the Klee case) and really did change the chemistry and for whatever reason doesn't want people to know how poor the initial batteries really were?

It seems to be well established that heat, in combination with percentage of charge, and to a lesser extent time are the factors that doomed the initial batteries. Obviously the newer batteries can't change the time factor, so how has Nissan mitigated the heat + charge % without changing the chemistry?

As a chemistry major in college (long ago now), I am interested in this juxtaposition and would hope it could be discussed here.

As a seven capacity bar loser, with five remaining, I am definitely hoping the new batteries that Nissan just installed under warranty for me are more than just a repackaged mix of the defective properties of the original batteries.

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Marktm
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:44 pm

LeafSpy data from my 2012 Leaf. I lost the 4th bar a couple of weeks ago. The "battery cells" screen shot is after completing a level 2 charge. The Leaf has been in hot, Texas climate since originally leased in Sept of 2012. Nissan has ordered a new battery for replacement - likely in December time-frame.


IMG_4621.PNG

IMG_4624.PNG
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2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

arnis
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:37 pm

sub3marathonman wrote:As a seven capacity bar loser, with five remaining, I am definitely hoping the new batteries that Nissan just installed under warranty for me are more than just a repackaged mix of the defective properties of the original batteries.


Lets hope that they ran out of old gen cells that degraded like hell for now. If they did then certainly new cells are better.
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flybinne
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:59 am

New to Leaf spy, charge to 100% yield ~90% SOC

Is this normal?

after charging the car overnight to 100%, I check the following night and I'm at:
88.1% SOC,
185 GIDFs (65.8%),
14.3KWh
41.65Ah
390.5V, at 81 degree F.

This is a 2011, with 24k miles with 60 months set to expire in January 2017

and I only have lost 2 bars so far, a long way to 8..., I live in Texas and I have babied the battery from the beginning (80% charge), and now, I think I'll end with a lemon, as I'll miss the boat for the battery replacement.

Is it normal that charging to 100% only yield 90-91% SOC.

I'm about to give the car to my sister in Canada, as a winter ride (I know the pack is not thermally protected).
She just have a 25 miles commute, but wonder what the cold will do...

Any thought?

sorry I cross posted to Range / Efficiency / Carwings before I found this thread

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Marktm
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:20 am

flybinne wrote:New to Leaf spy, charge to 100% yield ~90% SOC

Is this normal?

after charging the car overnight to 100%, I check the following night and I'm at:
88.1% SOC,
185 GIDFs (65.8%),
14.3KWh
41.65Ah
390.5V, at 81 degree F.

This is a 2011, with 24k miles with 60 months set to expire in January 2017

and I only have lost 2 bars so far, a long way to 8..., I live in Texas and I have babied the battery from the beginning (80% charge), and now, I think I'll end with a lemon, as I'll miss the boat for the battery replacement.

Is it normal that charging to 100% only yield 90-91% SOC.

I'm about to give the car to my sister in Canada, as a winter ride (I know the pack is not thermally protected).
She just have a 25 miles commute, but wonder what the cold will do...

Any thought?

sorry I cross posted to Range / Efficiency / Carwings before I found this thread


Can you post your battery cell conditions (.png?) after a full level 2 charge? It could be compared directly with my post of a couple of days ago on this thread. FYI, I have recently lost the fourth bar and are scheduled for a free replacement under warranty in December. The Leaf has been in Houston, TX it's whole life. Having lost only 2 bars seems understated - but not familiar enough with LeafSpy readings yet to be conclusive.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

flybinne
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:51 pm

Here's after a L2 charge to full from 8.4KWh, not sure why the images do not show up.
15.7KWh/24KWh is 65.4% if my maths are right...

but I guess Nissan use the Usable capacity of 21.8KWh, so I end up with 71.9%?

Image
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_fyjrbi6gmvdEZ2NzM4cjcwSlk/view?usp=sharing
Image
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_fyjrbi6gmvU29SUThSRUVMWDQ

GIDS 202
KWh 15.7
Ah 45.19
AHr 437.19
SOH 71%
Hx 51.29

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drees
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:33 am

flybinne wrote:New to Leaf spy, charge to 100% yield ~90% SOC

Not abnormal if you are charging to 100% from over 80%. Discharge the battery more and then do a 100% charge, get it down around 40%.

With 47 Ah remaining, you still have a ways before you get down to 8 bars capacity.
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Marktm
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:05 am

flybinne wrote:Here's after a L2 charge to full from 8.4KWh


The "battery cell condition" screen print that I posted several days ago shows the "full" calculated Ahr capacity of ~42.7. This was 3 weeks after the dealer confirmed the 4 bar drop would qualify for warranty replacement - so I'm not sure what the exact Ahr capacity was at that time (just got LeafSpy working). Don't believe the "full" capacity dropped much during that time, which would indicate you have around 4-5 Ahrs to drop. As drees stated - not very likely without massive intervention (appears that some have tried with success in other posts). Best of luck.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

cwerdna
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Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:47 am

I kinda wonder if outside the US, there are also many others complaining about capacity loss on '11 and '12 Leafs vs. the expectations that Nissan had set and what they'd set in their country.

I recently joined another one of many Leaf Facebook groups and came across https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 926205013/ that's in Japanese. That person is down 5 capacity bars at 233,333 km (144,986 miles). From the poor FB translation, I guess he got his Leaf in Nov 2011.

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