EV4Taos
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:00 pm

Valdemar wrote:There is also a theory that the battery "improvements" didn't get to the assembly line until mid-year.


For what its worth. 3-4 months ago before I bought my leaf, Nissan Leaf customer service told me that the 2011-2012 Leaf battery chemistry had problems with cold and hot temperatures, but the 2013-14 chemistry was changed to degrade less in very cold weather. So according to the Nissan rep. 2013-2014 batteries only help in very cold weather but degrade the same as 11'-12' in hot weather. So the 2015 batteries are supposed to degrade much less in both cold and hot weather.

Don't know if this was worth reporting, but here it is. :roll:

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TomT
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:14 pm

Rule number 1 of life with Nissan and Leaf... NEVER take anything that CS tells you at face value! In this case, as usual, they are dead wrong!

EV4Taos wrote:For what its worth. 3-4 months ago before I bought my leaf, Nissan Leaf customer service told me that the 2011-2012 Leaf battery chemistry had problems with cold and hot temperatures, but the 2013-14 chemistry was changed to degrade less in very cold weather.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

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TomT
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Re: Just joined the 11 bar 'Owner's Club' today

Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:16 pm

That is how Nissan did it, perhaps to hid initial degradation... The first bar is 15% and all the rest, except for the very last one, are 6.25%...

NissanLeafCamper wrote:whaaat? How can the rest of the 11 bars be worth less than half the value of the 12th bar?
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

EV4Taos
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:00 am
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Location: Taos, NM

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:55 pm

TomT wrote:Rule number 1 of life with Nissan and Leaf... NEVER take anything that CS tells you at face value! In this case, as usual, they are dead wrong!

EV4Taos wrote:For what its worth. 3-4 months ago before I bought my leaf, Nissan Leaf customer service told me that the 2011-2012 Leaf battery chemistry had problems with cold and hot temperatures, but the 2013-14 chemistry was changed to degrade less in very cold weather.


Not saying that Nissan CS has any idea of what they are talking about. So if they are even partially right its because its better to be lucky than smart. However, there is a higher internal resistance at very low temperatures (-4F). It might be OK if the Leaf didn't allow charging at those temps but to be a real car it has to anyway which can cause dendrites to form on the SEI layer. I believe these dendrites cause degradation. This is perhaps why they added a battery heater to late 2011s and 2012s. Having a better electrolyte can minimize dendrite formation too, but I don't know if any of the Leafs have a better electrolyte, even the 2015s.

This will never be a concern in California, but where I live in Taos it always gets down to -20 F at least a couple of times a year.

NissanLeafCamper
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Re: Just joined the 11 bar 'Owner's Club' today

Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:14 pm

TomT wrote:That is how Nissan did it, perhaps to hid initial degradation... The first bar is 15% and all the rest, except for the very last one, are 6.25%...

NissanLeafCamper wrote:whaaat? How can the rest of the 11 bars be worth less than half the value of the 12th bar?


Well, drats. I did not know that. I'm unsure as to why nissan would do that :(.

On the other hand after reading this thread I officially ran the nissan leaf in 'D'rag mode on the city streets 8-) . It was kind of a nice rush, but still feel a little risky. Would it not be better for me to sleep in the leaf over night with the A/C on? I bet that would give a bit of a work for the battery. Who knows maybe I could save some rent money too on top. That would be nice.

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mwalsh
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Re: Just joined the 11 bar 'Owner's Club' today

Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:42 am

NissanLeafCamper wrote:Would it not be better for me to sleep in the leaf over night with the A/C on? I bet that would give a bit of a work for the battery. Who knows maybe I could save some rent money too on top. That would be nice.



IMHO, pack heat is (nearly) all that matters (calendar losses too). Unless you can keep pack temps above capacity loss thresholds nothing else that you'd except to encourage it has much (if any) effect.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 76,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
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L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
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AV L2 EVSE.

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TomT
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:40 am

Heat is the primary enemy, not cold. Heat causes degeneration. Cold just causes a temporary loss of capacity (up to the point where the battery actually freezes, which is why they added the heater)...

EV4Taos wrote: However, there is a higher internal resistance at very low temperatures (-4F). It might be OK if the Leaf didn't allow charging at those temps but to be a real car it has to anyway which can cause dendrites to form on the SEI layer. I believe these dendrites cause degradation.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

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Stanton
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Re: Just joined the 11 bar 'Owner's Club' today

Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:41 am

NissanLeafCamper wrote:Sounds pretty crazy that you had a leaf, baby it, then ended up still with bad battery capacity. I actually run the leaf now in ECO mode all the time because, uh, well.... heck, i don't know anymore :(. Why am I running it in ECO mode? I should be driving it in "DRAG" mode 8-)


Exactly. That's the dirty little secret: don't baby it, drive it!

NissanLeafCamper wrote:Would sleeping inside the leaf 8hrs plus naps help draining the battery quicker? Plus also driving it a lot, of course.


No, but charging it to 100% and leaving it sit in the sun (or a hot garage) will do wonders. 8-)
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
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NissanLeafCamper
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:38 pm

TomT wrote:Heat is the primary enemy, not cold. Heat causes degeneration. Cold just causes a temporary loss of capacity (up to the point where the battery actually freezes, which is why they added the heater)...


What about loading it up to maximum load capacity, running it in 'D'rag mode plus also sleeping inside with the A/C on constantly? Wouldn't that constant demand of charging and discharging the battery cause it some degradation? Or would that only destroy the motor/A/C unit? :arrow:

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TomT
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:17 pm

The A/C is actually quite efficient, especially on the 2011 and 2012 cars, and doesn't pull that much energy... Running it in D mode or at maximum capacity is not going to have much affect...

NissanLeafCamper wrote:What about loading it up to maximum load capacity, running it in 'D'rag mode plus also sleeping inside with the A/C on constantly? Wouldn't that constant demand of charging and discharging the battery cause it some degradation? Or would that only destroy the motor/A/C unit? :arrow:
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

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