EVerlasting
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2013
Leaf Number: 017329
Location: Morristown, NJ, United States

Re: Battery Capacity Losses

Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:45 pm

TomT wrote:The arrangement of the solar system from a Leaf battery's perspective!

tumblr_n6q271QOta1rmia9ro1_500.jpg
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2012 Nissan Leaf SL|25,000 miles
Weekly charging using public CHAdeMO station 7 miles from my condo apartment and occasional charging using EVSEupgrade L2 240v 12 amps. 11 capacity bars

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TomT
Posts: 10576
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: Foothills of Granada Hills, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:20 am

35C is way too hot for the battery if you want to limit degradation... Even 25C will lead to degradation...

GRA wrote:I suspect in your case it's calendar degradation that's getting you, and other than keeping your battery at 35 deg. or so there's not much you can do to slow that.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier. Model 3 configured.

jfiveash
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:54 am
Delivery Date: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:47 pm

Stoaty wrote:
jfiveash wrote:Current readings from LeafDD are as follows:

SOC 91%
C 54.4Ahr
H 78.7%
Gids 221

Does it make sense that I have not lost a bar with these readings?
Is there consensus data on bar loss criteria after this P3227 update?

There is a lag between the time you hit capacity that should cause loss of a bar and the actual loss. Most lose the first bar around 54-54.5 Ahr. I would be surprised if you didn't lose a bar within 2 months max.


Well that did not take long. Lost first bar today so you were correct.
C 54.3, Gids 223

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TonyWilliams
Posts: 10038
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:38 pm

Getting close to losing my "first bar" on the Toyota Rav4 EV.

I drove 120 miles today from San Diego up north to Orange County, with about 15 miles range remaining.

That's 135 total miles / 3.7 miles per kWh is 36.49 kWh available.

36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity

19 months, 39,000 miles

Valdemar
Posts: 2425
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:54 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:Getting close to losing my "first bar" on the Toyota Rav4 EV.

I drove 120 miles today from San Diego up north to Orange County, with about 15 miles range remaining.

That's 135 total miles / 3.7 miles per kWh is 36.49 kWh available.

36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity

19 months, 39,000 miles



Is this an indication that active cooling is overrated for moderately warm climates?

edit: extrapolating to Tesla MS 80, range loss would be 30-40 miles, ouch.
Last edited by Valdemar on Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

smkettner
Posts: 7044
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:04 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity

19 months, 39,000 miles
That is worse than I expected. :(
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

GRA
Posts: 7753
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:31 pm

TomT wrote:
GRA wrote:I suspect in your case it's calendar degradation that's getting you, and other than keeping your battery at 35 deg. or so there's not much you can do to slow that.

35C is way too hot for the battery if you want to limit degradation... Even 25C will lead to degradation...

I was thinking it would be clear from the context that I was referring to 35 deg. F., not 35C!
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Weckel
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:50 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:39 pm

If you want a new and better batteries for your Leaf, you don't need to wait for the Nissan sell. The Renault Fluenze before had cells AESC from Nissan and change by LG that are better from heat. Could you do the same because the cell haven the same size.

Image

Stoaty
Posts: 4460
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:05 pm

GRA wrote:I was thinking it would be clear from the context that I was referring to 35 deg. F., not 35C!

Wasn't clear to me. I thought you had lost it! :o
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

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RegGuheert
Posts: 5680
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:10 am

EvansvilleLeaf wrote:I joined the missing tooth club today.
Sorry about that, Chief!
EvansvilleLeaf wrote:2012 SL Delivery 2/18/12. 14250 miles.
Is your VIN shown incorrect, given that is a 2011 VIN? Perhaps you entered that back when only four digits were allowed?
EvansvilleLeaf wrote:I suspect some people have babied their Leafs more than I have but not many.
EvansvilleLeaf wrote:Never seen a QC, charged to 100% a half dozen times tops Never seen turtle, VLBW 3 times only. Rarely even LBW! We see >100 and<0 degress exceptionally rarely in a fairly benign SW Indiana microclimate (really - we have significantly different weather even from central IN). I do very little highway driving so >60 maybe 20 times and >70 exactly twice. Lifetime 4.6ml/kWh. About the only no-no I engage in at all is rapid acceleration as I try to pre-emptively dismiss the slow golf cart meme at lights more often than I might.
That sounds a lot like our climate here. Differences that I see are that I try to promote the golf-cart meme by driving at low power most of the time. :) And I charge to 100% approximately once each week, so perhaps 150 times so far.
EvansvilleLeaf wrote:247 gids fully charged current readings on Spy AHr 55.37 SOH 84% Hx 80.49%.
Has your LEAF had the P3227 update applied, yet? I'm going to gues that it has not based on how close Hx is to SOH. (Mine diverged significantly immediately after the update.)

In any case, here are my numbers for a 2011 LEAF assembled in June 2011 and purchased on March 16, 2012 with 2011 miles on the odometer. It was a demo vehicle. VIN is 5926.

Imediately before the P3227 update about three weeks ago:
Odo=18,436 mi AHr=58.04 Hlth=85.66%
Yesterday:
Odo=19,002 mi AHr=58.71 Hlth=78.00%

My AHr number is still dropping following the update, so I would take the "Yesterday" reading with a grain of salt. I have no idea how much farther it will drop. If you haven't yet had the update, then you can compare with the other reading.
EvansvilleLeaf wrote:The car is leased but would still have more than enough miles for my routine for many many years so not a moment's concern for me - just makes me wonder a bit how cautious one must be to slow degradation further than I already have.
One thing we have done for the past 18 months is to fill the car only to the point that it will return home with about 30% charge. Then it remains there until just before we need it again. Does that help? I have no idea.

One other note: Cell-pair 37 in our LEAF seems to have a bit less capacity than the other cell pairs. Do you see one of your cell-pairs going below the others when you get to low SOCs, like 20% or below?

Anyway, thanks for the datum! It's good to have something to compare against! Most of the LEAFs on this forum are in quite different climates than ours!
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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