User avatar
wiltingleaf
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:00 pm
Delivery Date: 02 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 003744
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:14 pm

Nissan has agreed to repurchase my car under AZ Lemon Law. Check out my blog for additional information.

smkettner
Posts: 6607
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:15 pm

TickTock wrote: This data is not LA4, but rather a 32.2A discharge rate to better match 55mph discharge rate.

Does this imply faster driving and spirited acceleration will degrade the battery significantly faster?
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

klapauzius
Posts: 1654
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:18 pm

wiltingleaf wrote:Nissan has agreed to repurchase my car under AZ Lemon Law. Check out my blog for additional information.


Congrats! I think this should be a solution for everyone affected.

jspearman
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:04 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 5954
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:30 pm

wiltingleaf wrote:Nissan has agreed to repurchase my car under AZ Lemon Law. Check out my blog for additional information.


Curious to see what the final number turns out to be. I'd take that check and go buy a Volt and invite a news crew along.

gaswalla
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:07 pm
Delivery Date: 24 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 5012
Location: Coastal San Diego

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:39 pm

wiltingleaf wrote:Nissan has agreed to repurchase my car under AZ Lemon Law. Check out my blog for additional information.


Great news! Congratulations, and I hope others can reach similar closure.

User avatar
TickTock
Gold Member
Posts: 1683
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3626
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:44 pm

smkettner wrote:
TickTock wrote: This data is not LA4, but rather a 32.2A discharge rate to better match 55mph discharge rate.

Does this imply faster driving and spirited acceleration will degrade the battery significantly faster?

No. This doesn't (at least not directly). The additional loss of capacity caused by the higher discharge rate is just due to the additional I2R losses inside the battery - not permanent damage. If you drive slowly you will get more kWh out of your battery then if you drive fast. I got to see a graph of this effect too. At 90mph, a new battery pulls 40kW and will lose 5% of the battery capacity to i2r losses in the battery.

That said, driving faster *does* require more energy per mile just due to wind drag --> more charge/discharge cycles per mile --> more degradation per mile.

User avatar
wishboneash
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:07 am
Delivery Date: 03 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3815
Location: San Francisco Bay area, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:01 pm

TickTock wrote:
smkettner wrote:
TickTock wrote: This data is not LA4, but rather a 32.2A discharge rate to better match 55mph discharge rate.

Does this imply faster driving and spirited acceleration will degrade the battery significantly faster?

No. This doesn't. The additional loss of capacity caused by the higher discharge rate is just due to the additional I2R losses inside the battery - not permanent damage. If you drive slowly you will get more kWh out of your battery then if you drive fast. I got to see a graph of this effect too. At 90mph, a new battery pulls 40kW and will lose 5% of the battery capacity to i2r losses in the battery.

That said, driving faster *does* require more energy per mile just due to wind drag --> more charge/discharge cycles per mile --> more degradation per mile.


I don't quite agree. High current into or out of the battery will stress the battery more besides the IR drop issue that reduces power. There are papers on "intercalation stress" on Li-ion batteries, but not being a electrochemical engineer, I don't know how it applies to these batteries. However, I can envision high temperatures within the battery, electromigration effects etc. which could cause some damage over time (just like the exposure to high ambient temps). I prefer not to drive aggressively to mitigate this possibility and since I own and not lease, I am not taking any chances. I have not seen much degradation in capacity yet.
Nissan Leaf Silver SL
30 mths/owned/35,100 mi/11b/5.2 mi_kWhr
PV 2.2kW, '98 Civic NGV, '07 MINI S,
PP-ASEL/IA Mooney M20J

JRP3
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:04 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:55 pm

As I recall intercalation happens on charge and de-intercalation happens on discharge, and I believe the intercalation stress is only a concern during charge, and why batteries can usually put out a higher discharge rate than a charge rate.

azdre
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:28 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:45 pm

Nissan is also going to buy our car back at standard lemon law repurchase terms. We were told of this intent (verbally only) a few days before the range test (9/11), and debated whether to say anything. We really couldn't jeopardize our chance at the buyback so we decided to keep quiet. We were very skeptical at whether they would actually follow through and were given no details at that time.

We followed the dispute resolution process as outlined in the warranty manual... to the tee. So if someone wants to know how we did it, tell them to RTFM! :-)

She gets returned on Tuesday at 9am. This will put this to an end for us, but we're still here to help anyone else get the resolution they desire. If anyone has an idea of an offset for all of the bad mojo I've given to EVs, let me know. I want them to be mainstreamed, but I'm not willing to throw $33,000 out the window for it to happen.

We'll have an update on KPHO (probably tonight @10pm). http://www.kpho.com/

jspearman
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:04 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 5954
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:31 pm

azdre wrote:Nissan is also going to buy our car back at standard lemon law repurchase terms. We were told of this intent (verbally only) a few days before the range test (9/11), and debated whether to say anything. We really couldn't jeopardize our chance at the buyback so we decided to keep quiet. We were very skeptical at whether they would actually follow through and were given no details at that time.

We followed the dispute resolution process as outlined in the warranty manual... to the tee. So if someone wants to know how we did it, tell them to RTFM! :-)

She gets returned on Tuesday at 9am. This will put this to an end for us, but we're still here to help anyone else get the resolution they desire. If anyone has an idea of an offset for all of the bad mojo I've given to EVs, let me know. I want them to be mainstreamed, but I'm not willing to throw $33,000 out the window for it to happen.

We'll have an update on KPHO (probably tonight @10pm). http://www.kpho.com/


Whoa, two in one day! Looks like the logjam might be breaking.

Return to “Problems / Trouble Shooting”