Volusiano
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:26 am

RegGuheert wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:i think we all need to "consider" that Nissan has addressed the issue much quicker than we had realized.
By my way of thinking, Nissan has addressed absolutely nothing. They have not even acknowledged that there is any problem with the Nissan LEAFs they sold to customers in Phoenix. They have not retracted or clarified public statements like the one in the manual that their customers can expect to have 80% capacity after five years. And I suspect they are still selling LEAFs in Phoenix to people when they know there is a decent probability that those LEAFs will be beyond the standard definition of battery end-of-life (<70% original capacity) before the length of a normal lease has passed.
+1!

Stoaty
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:48 am

RegGuheert wrote:By my way of thinking, Nissan has addressed absolutely nothing. They have not even acknowledged that there is any problem with the Nissan LEAFs they sold to customers in Phoenix. They have not retracted or clarified public statements like the one in the manual that their customers can expect to have 80% capacity after five years. And I suspect they are still selling LEAFs in Phoenix to people when they know there is a decent probability that those LEAFs will be beyond the standard definition of battery end-of-life (<70% original capacity) before the length of a normal lease has passed.

They haven't addressed anything yet, but it looks like they are in the process of addressing the problem. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a large company to move any faster than they are moving. We don't really know if this "testing" is because what is happening in Phoenix was really unexpected, or if they are just using it to buy time while they formulate an official response. Either way, it is a positive step because it is a tacit acknowledgment that there is a problem--but one that will need some followup actions to be meaningful.
Lifetime 5.5 m/kWh (Dash) over 41,800 miles / 49 months
Capacity Loss Predicted - 22.3% Actual - 23.0%
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mwalsh
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:48 am

^ What he said. Patience my pretties! :lol:
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 54,400 miles; ~186 Gids; 9 bars; 50-55 miles per charge.
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RegGuheert
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:52 am

Stoaty wrote:Either way, it is a positive step because it is a tacit acknowledgment that there is a problem--but one that will need some followup actions to be meaningful.
Agreed. But continuing to sell LEAFs in Phoenix just as before is a tacit denial that there is a problem.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10,000 miles on April 14, 2013. 20,000 miles (and 55.7Ah) on August 7, 2014.
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jspearman
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:05 pm

I agree that it's a bit disingenuous to keep selling the Leaf here in Phoenix until they know better what is going on, but I think what Nissan is doing with The cars in Casa Grande is a positive first step and I'm reserving further judgment and action until I hear what they have to say. The act of pulling these cars off the road is an acknowledgment from Nissan that something is amiss, whether they verbally admit it or not. So, I wait.

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wxxyz
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:13 pm

I just received this from Nissan. To view the PDF version, click here


An open letter to Nissan LEAF owners from Carla Bailo, senior vice
president, Research and Development, Nissan Americas:


Image
At Nissan, we consider ourselves fortunate to have such passionate
and engaged customers—especially within our LEAF family. Recently,
we learned from the Nissan LEAF community—and specifically from
some Phoenix-area LEAF owners—of a growing concern about battery
capacity loss with their electric vehicles. In fact, the MyNissanLEAF
online owners' forum—a resource that allows owners to share their
experiences and discuss EVs— helped bring the concern to our
attention for which we’re appreciative.

The forum's discussion around battery capacity loss has reached a
point where I feel it important to personally address what is being
debated, to provide Nissan's viewpoint and, most importantly, to
explain the actions we are taking to work with owners.

First, it is important to stress that while battery capacity loss incidents represent only a
handful of cases, we are taking them—as well as the concerns of the larger LEAF family—
very seriously. Battery capacity loss of the levels reported may be considered normal
depending on the method and frequency of charging, the operating environment, the
amount of electricity consumed during daily usage and a vehicle's mileage and age. But the
only way to know for sure is to examine customer vehicles, perform a thorough diagnostic
on the vehicle and battery, and better understand the real-world driving and charging
history of the owners. We are now reaching out to individual owners to start this process to
ensure that we fully understand these events and all potential causes, and pledge to provide
an update as soon as possible.

Battery data collected from Nissan LEAFs to date currently indicates that less than 0.3
percent of Nissan LEAFs in the U.S. (including vehicles in service dating back to December,
2010) have experienced a loss of any battery capacity bars. Overall, this universe of
vehicles represents a very small fraction of the more than 13,000 Nissan LEAFs on U.S.
roads. Also, data received globally from other LEAF vehicles shows that this condition
typically occurs to high-mileage cars or those in unique operating situations.

Second, I want to explain battery capacity, how it is affected by the operating environment
and usage patterns and what is considered normal battery health. All lithium-ion batteries
lose capacity with use and age. This is normal and expected. In general, lithium-ion
batteries exhibit a higher loss of capacity early in life, with the rate of loss decreasing over
time. Nissan has projected that LEAF batteries will generally have 80 percent of their
capacity under normal use after 5 years, and 70 percent after 10 years.

Are there factors that could negatively affect this performance curve? Yes. A customer's
method and frequency of charging, operating environment, the amount of electricity
consumed during daily usage and a vehicle's mileage and age can all affect the rate of
battery capacity loss. Until we know more about each customer's unique situation, it would
be premature to declare what is happening with the Nissan LEAFs in Phoenix, and whether
their performance is within the range of expectations or not. Working closely with our
owners to get to the bottom of these concerns is exactly what we’re committed to do.

Nissan engineers from our Arizona Testing Center and around the world will study each
customer case, work to discover the root cause and will determine next steps to satisfy our
customers. While we do this, we pledge to provide an update to our customers as soon as
possible.

Together, we are confident that by collaborating with our LEAF community—including the
more than 400 owners in Arizona—we will ensure that owners experience many years of
enjoyable driving as EV pioneers.

Thank you for your passion for the Nissan LEAF and the electrical vehicle movement. It is
only through your dedication and willingness to innovate that we are able to bring zeroemission
mobility to the mass market.

Kind regards,
Carla Bailo
Senior Vice President, Research & Development
Nissan Americas

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RegGuheert
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:16 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:personally, i think it was a great plan...timing is just a bit off is all
Personally, I agree that the idea of Nissan having some sort of better battery technology coming in the 2013 LEAFs is the only thing that makes all the pieces fit together logically. It sure would be nice if we had some more direct evidence, though.

BTW, does anyone have an idea when we can expect Nissan to detail the 2013 LEAF offering? Will it be soon, or will it be delayed based on the TN factory start date of December 2012?
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10,000 miles on April 14, 2013. 20,000 miles (and 55.7Ah) on August 7, 2014.
Charged by our 12.75 kW solar array

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:18 pm

Seems like normal corporate speak to head off hysteria (which could cost Nissan sales and money).
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DesertDenizen
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:21 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:Seems like normal corporate speak to head off hysteria (which could cost Nissan sales and money).


I am with Tony, it is a bunch of blah blah blah. Of and if it is only 0.3% of owners, why not make us whole?
[color=#0040BF]Fully charged by photo voltaic system.
Nov 9 2014 got my 2015 lease, SL. My third Leaf. Tucson AZ. 5,500 miles, 5.2 long term m/kwh. Let us see if the 'lizard' battery does better than my 2011, which lost a capacity bar at 6,771 miles.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:23 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:Seems like normal corporate speak to head off hysteria (which could cost Nissan sales and money).
Agreed, with one interesting promise thrown in:
Carla Bailo wrote:...—we will ensure that owners experience many years of enjoyable driving as EV pioneers.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10,000 miles on April 14, 2013. 20,000 miles (and 55.7Ah) on August 7, 2014.
Charged by our 12.75 kW solar array

H2 FCVs: The "solution" only a government could love.

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