Frequent Brake Fluid Replacement

JPWhite · Oct 7, 2011

I notice in the LEAF maintenance schedule that Brake Fluid is scheduled for REPLACEMENT every 15,000 miles. Seems too frequent to me.

Looking through the Altima service schedule, brake fluid inspection is common but *never* at any mileage is brake fluid scheduled for routine replacement.

Does anyone know why brake fluid should be replaced so frequently in the LEAF? With regenerative braking the brakes get relatively light use anyway.

Are Nissan just coming up with busy work to give dealerships some way to get service revenue from LEAF owners?

JP

TonyWilliams · Oct 7, 2011

JPWhite said:
Are Nissan just coming up with busy work to give dealerships some way to get service revenue from LEAF owners?

JP

Yes.

smkettner · Oct 7, 2011

Two years would seem a bit much but in my opinion brake fluid is a bit neglected in most vehicles.
I prefer maybe five years or at pad replacement for a brake fluid refresh.

Herm · Oct 7, 2011

JPWhite said:
Does anyone know why brake fluid should be replaced so frequently in the LEAF? With regenerative braking the brakes get relatively light use anyway.

The Leaf does not offer engine braking for coming down a mountain, instead it offers oversized brake pads in case regen fails (a fuse blows) so that you dont lose control of the car.. too much contamination in the fluid and the water will boil at the worst possible time, then your brakes fail and you fly off a cliff. By the time they find your remains the brakes will have cooled off and they never figure out what happened. We worry about these things in Florida.

TomT · Oct 7, 2011

Unless you regularly drive through deep swamps and underwater, there is no way any brake system will hydroscopically absorb enough moisture in even two years for it to be an issue. It is simply a way to get you to the dealer and make a little money off of you (actually, a lot of money at the ludicrous $299 price that Nissan charges for this). Every two years is more than fine and actually quite conservative!

Herm said:
JPWhite said:

Does anyone know why brake fluid should be replaced so frequently in the LEAF? With regenerative braking the brakes get relatively light use anyway.

Click to expand...

The Leaf does not offer engine braking for coming down a mountain, instead it offers oversized brake pads in case regen fails (a fuse blows) so that you dont lose control of the car.. too much contamination in the fluid and the water will boil at the worst possible time, then your brakes fail and you fly off a cliff. By the time they find your remains the brakes will have cooled off and they never figure out what happened. We worry about these things in Florida.

DeaneG · Oct 7, 2011

At the very least, brake fluid will slowly but steadily absorb water through the plastic walls of the reservoir under the hood. Have at look at the reservoir in your old ride - if the brake fluid looks like honey or darker, it's time to change it.

I've rebuilt enough brakes, and flushed enough brake fluid myself, to know what old brake fluid looks like, and why it should be changed periodically.

Nekota · Oct 7, 2011

I noticed my brake fluid seems to be much darker than when I received the car 5 months ago. Anyone else notice a darker color? I recall it being much lighter before or it could be the container getting darker, as I didn't look at the fluid. I must be getting paranoid from lack of maintenance requirements, oil changes, gas fillups, check oil but will take a picture for comparison. Now to find a white sheet of paper for a reference background. Maybe Nissan knows something we don't?

Levenkay · Oct 7, 2011

DeaneG said:
At the very least, brake fluid will slowly but steadily absorb water through the plastic walls of the reservoir under the hood. Have at look at the reservoir in your old ride - if the brake fluid looks like honey or darker, it's time to change it.

I've rebuilt enough brakes, and flushed enough brake fluid myself, to know what old brake fluid looks like, and why it should be changed periodically.

Sounds like quite a few more than the number of times it would take to decide that the wrong substance had been chosen for the fluid. But do the pistons really care what color fluid is pushing on them?

TonyWilliams · Oct 8, 2011

DeaneG said:
...to know what old brake fluid looks like, and why it should be changed periodically.

Nobody claims the brake fluid doesn't need changing; the issue is frequency.

Herm · Oct 8, 2011

DeaneG said:
At the very least, brake fluid will slowly but steadily absorb water through the plastic walls of the reservoir under the hood. Have at look at the reservoir in your old ride - if the brake fluid looks like honey or darker, it's time to change it.

I dont know if the color change is due to moisture contamination, perhaps they do that on purpose to let you know. I think most of the water contamination comes from the fluid reservoir not being sealed, its exposed to air and the level goes up and down as you step on the brakes.. primitive if you think about it.

The color change may be from carbon black that is used to make the rubber hoses.

JPWhite · Oct 8, 2011

I found an article on this topic. Consumer Reports also noticed the frequent fluid replacement schedule. They *did* ask Nissan and the answer was what we have come to expect from Nissan. Vague. I didn't see from their response why this vehicle is any different to any other they manufacture. ABS is nothing new, hydroscopic nature of fluid is nothing new. $300 to replace the fluid.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/07/zen-and-the-art-of-nissan-leaf-maintenance.html

ttweed · Oct 8, 2011

This subject has come up at least 3 times on these forums in the various "maintenance/service" threads, with a wide range of opinions being expressed:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1250&start=20
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2152&start=20

The reality is that your brake fluid will absorb water from the atmosphere. This contamination can definitely effect the boiling point of the fluid and the corrosion rate of the brake system components. What interval you select for changing the fluid depends on your use of the car and your personal "risk vs. reward" calculation. Many manufacturers recommend a 2-year interval for brake fluid flushing and replacement. Undoubtedly, one can get away with a longer interval, as they are going to be conservative with their recommendation. If you're never going to stress the brakes and get the fluid hot enough to boil it (even though it's boiling point may have been lowered by 50% from contamination in 2 years), and you are not going to keep the car long and don't care about component longevity, you could probably go for 3 years easily without touching the fluid.

Personally, since I am keeping the car indefinitely and care about the longevity of the brake system, and have experienced the disconcerting (to say the least) phenomena of brake fade from boiling fluid causing the pedal to go to the floor just when it is most needed, and it is a simple DIY service task that can be accomplished in an hour in your garage for the $10-12 cost of a liter of high-quality DOT 4 fluid, I will be flushing and replacing it at least every other year.

YMMV,
TT

TomT · Oct 8, 2011

I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't ever change it, just that changing it every year is wasteful, costly, and unnecessary. Oh, and that you should have it done elsewhere since Nissan's apparent dealer asking price ($299) is simply absurd. Every two years should be more than sufficient and is actually quite conservative.

ttweed said:
Personally, since I am keeping the car indefinitely and care about the longevity of the brake system, and have experienced the disconcerting (to say the least) phenomena of brake fade from boiling fluid causing the pedal to go to the floor just when it is most needed, and it is a simple DIY service task that can be accomplished in an hour in your garage for the $10-12 cost of a liter of high-quality DOT 4 fluid, I will be flushing and replacing it at least every other year.

smkettner · Oct 8, 2011

ttweed said:
This subject has come up at least 3 times on these forums in the various "maintenance/service" threads, with a wide range of opinions being expressed:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1250&start=20
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2152&start=20

The reality is that your brake fluid will absorb water from the atmosphere. This contamination can definitely effect the boiling point of the fluid and the corrosion rate of the brake system components. What interval you select for changing the fluid depends on your use of the car and your personal "risk vs. reward" calculation. Many manufacturers recommend a 2-year interval for brake fluid flushing and replacement. Undoubtedly, one can get away with a longer interval, as they are going to be conservative with their recommendation. If you're never going to stress the brakes and get the fluid hot enough to boil it (even though it's boiling point may have been lowered by 50% from contamination in 2 years), and you are not going to keep the car long and don't care about component longevity, you could probably go for 3 years easily without touching the fluid.

Personally, since I am keeping the car indefinitely and care about the longevity of the brake system, and have experienced the disconcerting (to say the least) phenomena of brake fade from boiling fluid causing the pedal to go to the floor just when it is most needed, and it is a simple DIY service task that can be accomplished in an hour in your garage for the $10-12 cost of a liter of high-quality DOT 4 fluid, I will be flushing and replacing it at least every other year.

YMMV,
TT

Any special procedures to flush the fluid? Has anyone posted from the service manual?
I thought some vehicles had a special sequence to bleed the ABS or some such.

ttweed · Oct 9, 2011

smkettner said:
Any special procedures to flush the fluid? Has anyone posted from the service manual?
I thought some vehicles had a special sequence to bleed the ABS or some such.

If you read the threads I linked to in my post you will find folks reporting that no special tools or equipment are necessary to bleed the system, per the service manual. See AndyH's post, the second one down on this page:http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2152&start=20

TT

ttweed · Oct 9, 2011

TomT said:
I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't ever change it, just that changing it every year is wasteful, costly, and unnecessary.

Unless you're talking about a race car, which the Leaf is not.

Oh, and that you should have it done elsewhere since Nissan's apparent dealer asking price ($299) is simply absurd.

That is crazy expensive, unless your time is worth more than $300/hr. You can buy a Motiv power bleeder for $50 and make it a one-person job, although you will probably go through 2 liters of fluid that way (and don't forget to block off the MC vent tube, if there is one, or most of it will end up on the garage floor!) For $300, you could buy a floor jack, 4 jackstands and a 1/2"-drive electric impact wrench as well, making it really fast and easy to remove/replace the wheels for the job!

Every two years should be more than sufficient and is actually quite conservative.

I think that's what I said. The 15,000 mile (1 year) recommendation by Nissan is only for "severe duty" conditions, which I don't think many Leafs will experience. The normal duty cycle for brake fluid replacement is specified as 30,000 miles in the service manual, which would be about a 2.5 year interval for most drivers, given a 12K miles/year average usage. I use a one-year interval on my Porsches, but I race them and they are subjected to brake stresses far beyond any normal street driving, plus the consequences of failure can be far more drastic.

BTW, there are simple test strips you can dip in your MC fluid reservoir and determine the need for a change very easily and accurately that many shops use: http://phoenixsystem.com/tech_stuff/brakestrip_system/index.htm

TT

smkettner · Oct 9, 2011

I have a Motive Power bleeder for my truck...... do you know the proper adapter number for Leaf?

Nevermind, found the guide

http://www.motiveproducts.com/files/Download/Application Guide.pdf

Shows 1107/1117 same as my truck for Nissan but this will not fit Leaf.

JimSouCal · Oct 9, 2011

ttweed said:
BTW, there are simple test strips you can dip in your MC fluid reservoir and determine the need for a change very easily and accurately that many shops use: http://phoenixsystem.com/tech_stuff/brakestrip_system/index.htm

Tom, thanks. Wondering what shops might use the strips? To buy (2) from the company, the cost is $9.99 and a minimum $15 shipping, or about $25. Of course, one could buy a bunch to get the per test cost down...

LEAFfan · Oct 9, 2011

Here's a brake fluid tester from Amazon for about $31 including shipping. It reads the percentage of moisture in your fluid.
http://www.amazon.com/Titan-TIT51400-Brake-Fluid-Tester/dp/B005C95JNM/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1318194938&sr=8-6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's another method for testing your brake fluid I found using a DMM meter: http://workshop.search-autoparts.com/_Tech-Tip-Testing-Brake-Fluid-With-Your-DMM-Updated-42009/blog/209152/31710.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

planet4ever · Oct 9, 2011

ttweed said:
The 15,000 mile (1 year) recommendation by Nissan is only for "severe duty" conditions, which I don't think many Leafs will experience.

Really? I would think quite the opposite. From the Service and Maintenance Guide:

SCHEDULE 1 (more severe operating conditions)
Use Schedule 1 if you primarily operate your electric vehicle under any of these conditions:

Repeated short trips of less than 5 miles in normal temperatures or less than 10 miles in freezing temperatures

Stop-and-go traffic in hot weather or low speed driving for long distances

Driving in dusty conditions or on rough, muddy, or salt-spread roads

Using a car-top carrier

Personally I make a lot of trips of less than 5 miles. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that many owners encounter at least one of those conditions.

Ray

Frequent Brake Fluid Replacement

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