Water Pump DOA

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DaveinOlyWA

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
16,260
Location
Olympia, WA
The other day I realized my water pump was dysfunctional, not playing well with others or just simply useless. I should have a new one when my schedule permits me to get it installed but my tech mentioned that I was not the first so thinking maybe its something we should be aware of... As always, details in blog.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/04/water-pump-deaddoa-not-in-leaf.html
 
Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.
 
rt84vhf said:
Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.

Actually there is "likely" no amount of driving that will heat the inverter cover (actually the top part is the PDM) I am thinking cause I took it out on nearly 50 mile jaunt and it was cold as ice, not a hint of warmth. But when I felt the heat on the cover the other day after roughly 90 mins of charging, it was fairly warm. much warmer than I had ever felt before. Granted not a lot experience here but I only remember barely feeling a hint of warmth before and I could always hear water moving.

As far as the pitch; My tech surmised I could hear it because it was running at 100% so the noise itself would not be unusual. As it runs faster, the pitch gets higher and this was a pretty high pitched squeal.

Now why this only seems to heat up only when charging, I don't know. the PDM, inverter, etc. is pretty much being used all the time switching back and forth to either take power from the battery or regen power back in.
 
rt84vhf said:
Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.
I'm also confused. On my currently leased '13, I'm fairly certain that when charging for a few hours on level 2, the PDM cover and all the metal of the stack is quite warm to the touch. It's nowhere near hot enough to burn but noticeably warm.

I recall the same thing happens on level 1, which I almost never do anymore.

IIRC, my leased '13 Leaf was exactly the same. So, I always figured this was normal.

If there's no been charging and I've been driving for say 20 to 40 miles, yeah, the cover of the PDM stack is not warm to the touch at all.

Charging for me normally results in a very faint pump sounds and I can feel vibration and fluid movement thru the hoses.

From the graphs on thanks to Chargepoint, my car and my former leased one on 208 volt L2 EVSEs, generally pull between 5.7 to 6.0 kW, sometimes a little higher. There are a couple EVSEs that I used to use (at a building I don't work at anymore) that were always lower in output (presumably lower voltage) like 5.7 kW than ones inside that building.
 
cwerdna said:
rt84vhf said:
Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.
I'm also confused. On my currently leased '13, I'm fairly certain that when charging for a few hours on level 2, the PDM cover and all the metal of the stack is quite warm to the touch. It's nowhere near hot enough to burn but noticeably warm.

I recall the same thing happens on level 1, which I almost never do anymore.

IIRC, my leased '13 Leaf was exactly the same. So, I always figured this was normal.

If there's no been charging and I've been driving for say 20 to 40 miles, yeah, the cover of the PDM stack is not warm to the touch at all.

Charging for me normally results in a very faint pump sounds and I can feel vibration and fluid movement thru the hoses.

From the graphs on thanks to Chargepoint, my car and my former leased one on 208 volt L2 EVSEs, generally pull between 5.7 to 6.0 kW, sometimes a little higher. There are a couple EVSEs that I used to use (at a building I don't work at anymore) that were always lower in output (presumably lower voltage) like 5.7 kW than ones inside that building.

duplicate
 
cwerdna said:
rt84vhf said:
Read your blog post. Just wanted to ask about the noise and the temperature of the inverter lid. Are you saying that your inverter lid, once cooled completely after a drive, will stay that way while charging? I just checked mine after a 100 mile day, and it's fairly warm while charging on L1. My wife's is completely cold, but it's been sitting for two days.

Can you hear the normal water pump sound with the hood down? I just checked both of ours, and the noise is identical. It's very faint, but you can hear it with the hoods closed. I can definitely feel the water flow through the hoses on both.
I'm also confused. On my currently leased '13, I'm fairly certain that when charging for a few hours on level 2, the PDM cover and all the metal of the stack is quite warm to the touch. It's nowhere near hot enough to burn but noticeably warm.

I recall the same thing happens on level 1, which I almost never do anymore.

IIRC, my leased '13 Leaf was exactly the same. So, I always figured this was normal.

If there's no been charging and I've been driving for say 20 to 40 miles, yeah, the cover of the PDM stack is not warm to the touch at all.

Charging for me normally results in a very faint pump sounds and I can feel vibration and fluid movement thru the hoses.

From the graphs on thanks to Chargepoint, my car and my former leased one on 208 volt L2 EVSEs, generally pull between 5.7 to 6.0 kW, sometimes a little higher. There are a couple EVSEs that I used to use (at a building I don't work at anymore) that were always lower in output (presumably lower voltage) like 5.7 kW than ones inside that building.

I agree that this is all a bit strange. I am working at no more than 5760 watts but the PDM is noticeably warm in just over an hour of charging (just unplugged it after 75 mins) but a drive that bounces power thru the inverter at anywhere from -30 KW to 40-50 KW doesn't even give a hint of warmth.

is the power from the wall really that hard to convert? As far as the cover being warm, I have not noticed that on previous LEAFs but again, I had few opportunities to actually check this but did have one time during Summer when charging on L2 when the fans came on. That was something different but even then the PDM didn't warm up. But keep in mind, on the 2011 the charger was in the back. not sure why or even if that matters...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
But keep in mind, on the 2011 the charger was in the back. not sure why or even if that matters...
Yes. since you had an '11 Leaf before, the on-board charger was in the back, you likely never took the plastic hump cover off back there while charging to feel it. It wouldn't surprise me if none of the components under the hood of an '11 or '12 while charging would get warm, other than maybe the radiator and some of the hoses that run between the back and front.

In terms of "hard to convert", well even laptop power supplies w/35 to 100-ish watt output max get warm when charging a laptop and even hot (if CPU is maxed out and battery is low). Even 5 watt to 12 watt official Apple iPhone and iPad AC adapters also get warm to hot when charging.

For charging a Leaf on L2, it's drawing 5500+ watts and there are several hundreds watts of overhead w/some of that being waste heat. How hot does a 60 or 100 incandescent light bulb get? Or even a 13 watt CFL or a 10 watt LED (base portion, which may may/not have a heat sink)?

When the Leaf's moving, at least you have plenty of airflow thru the radiator and over/around the PDM stack via ram air.

(For others who may not know when we mean by PDM stack, we're talking about the whole stack pictured at http://articles.sae.org/11993/.)
 
The liquid-cooled power stack on my 2015 was quite warm to the touch after L2 charging From VLBW to full with initial current about 26.6 amperes and voltage about 242 last night. It took a while for the small amount of waste heat to warm up the radiator and power stack, but I could feel some warmth after an hour. The pump was running and moving coolant, but not making much noise. The radiator and stack were cooled off by the time I left on my 26- mile, mostly freeway commute this morning. The stack temperature was just a little above ambient temperature when I arrived at my office. This shows that air flow through the radiator at highway speed effectively dissipates the waste heat from the DC-DC converter, inverter, and motor. I suspect the power stack and radiator would not get very warm if the fans ran all the time while charging, but that would create more noise, waste energy, and increase wear on the fans. The fans do cycle on when charging at high ambient temperatures to keep things from getting too hot.

Regarding the amount of heat generated--the charger is running at full capacity for most of the charge cycle while the inverter and motor see only occasional, short-duration operation at full load. I would still be concerned about localized hot spots (especially in the inverter and DC-DC converter) when driving with an inoperative coolant pump.
 
Well I am thinking the only way I am able to drive is both a blessing and a curse. With the comments here, there is obvious heat buildup that I likely simply didn't notice before in my 2013 but the lack of a thermostat means the coolant is free flowing and even with a broken water pump or one that is working well below its norm like mine likely is is still plenty enough to keep the car from over heating.

The drawback is its waste heat that might have been useful in keeping cabin warmer. Granted, more complicated and expensive but its not like they don't have a lot of experience with this in gassers, right?

Either way, I drove 100+ miles yesterday with a QC and ZERO evidence of anything getting warm. For a metal jacketed object, even the slightest amount of energy would "take the chill" off and that is not happening to even the smallest degree.

Tomorrow it will be roughly 180 miles and 2 QCs. Doubt that will make any difference either...
 
As a related side note, just yesterday I noticed an update to LeafSpy was available. It now provides temperatures for additional internal components.
 
It is 92F and after 2-1/2 hours of L2 charging I measured the temperature of the onboard charger/DC-DC converter housing (top liquid-cooled section) at 137F. The top cover is a little cooler, but still too hot to keep my hand on. The fans have not come on. The coolant pump is definitely running faster than when I checked it while charging the other night. The service manual indicates that the fans will come on at 140F (60C) so it was almost hot enough to have the fans turn on while charging.

I don't think the charger is dissipating (wasting) much energy--the amount of coolant is small and there is no air flow through the radiator so a few watts dissipated will raise the temperature significantly over the time it takes to charge.
 
GerryAZ said:
It is 92F and after 2-1/2 hours of L2 charging I measured the temperature of the onboard charger/DC-DC converter housing (top liquid-cooled section) at 137F. The top cover is a little cooler, but still too hot to keep my hand on. The fans have not come on. The coolant pump is definitely running faster than when I checked it while charging the other night. The service manual indicates that the fans will come on at 140F (60C) so it was almost hot enough to have the fans turn on while charging.

I don't think the charger is dissipating (wasting) much energy--the amount of coolant is small and there is no air flow through the radiator so a few watts dissipated will raise the temperature significantly over the time it takes to charge.

WOW! that is extreme. I measured the side of the PDM about 2-3" from the top and got 106º while the top was only 98 after 2 hours. Ambient was mid 60's. By then the pump was probably only running 75-80%. The other day, it was squealing about twice as loud and likely running 100%. Can you feel your pump vibrating when it runs? Also can you hear water being moved?
 
rt84vhf said:
As a related side note, just yesterday I noticed an update to LeafSpy was available. It now provides temperatures for additional internal components.

Installed the update last night and so far the new data is confusing. Supposed to have Motor and 2 inverter positions measured. Well, motor changes but inverter temps are stuck on 40º. I also took a look at the other parameters added including trip performance. There are two, startup for each time the car is powered on and "since last charge"

Since I reset my gauges every day, today my performance in the morning had me at 4.6 miles/kwh on the dash but LS was putting me at 3.9 I had one trip at 6.0 miles per kwh (believable since it was all in town driving) But later I went out and had two trips of 5.0 and 5.1 but my dash had dropped to 4.4. LS since last charge was the same at 3.9


so lot more info but a lot more questions?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
WOW! that is extreme. I measured the side of the PDM about 2-3" from the top and got 106º while the top was only 98 after 2 hours. Ambient was mid 60's. By then the pump was probably only running 75-80%. The other day, it was squealing about twice as loud and likely running 100%. Can you feel your pump vibrating when it runs? Also can you hear water being moved?

I can feel the pump vibrating, hear it running, and hear water being moved normally. My ambient temperature is 30 degrees higher than yours and my charger temperature is about 30 degrees higher so no problem. If I had a way to turn the fans on, I would have tried that to see how quickly the coolant temperature dropped, but the coolant temperature needed to climb several more degrees before the fans would start automatically.
 
GerryAZ said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
WOW! that is extreme. I measured the side of the PDM about 2-3" from the top and got 106º while the top was only 98 after 2 hours. Ambient was mid 60's. By then the pump was probably only running 75-80%. The other day, it was squealing about twice as loud and likely running 100%. Can you feel your pump vibrating when it runs? Also can you hear water being moved?

I can feel the pump vibrating, hear it running, and hear water being moved normally. My ambient temperature is 30 degrees higher than yours and my charger temperature is about 30 degrees higher so no problem. If I had a way to turn the fans on, I would have tried that to see how quickly the coolant temperature dropped, but the coolant temperature needed to climb several more degrees before the fans would start automatically.

Well Aaron told me I had little to worry about while waiting for parts. My pump works but its barely moving water. I can squeeze the hoses flat while the pump is running and unlike my previous two LEAFs where I could easily hear the water moving, I cannot hear nothing but the pump squealing now

Makes me wonder what the upper temperature limit is?
 
Here are the accepted maximum design temperature ranges for electronics. This should give you an idea...

Temperature Grades and Associated Temperature Ranges:

Temperature Grade Temperature Range
Commercial 0°C to 85°C
Industrial -40°C to 100°C
Extended -40°C to 125°C (1)
Military -55°C to 125°C

DaveinOlyWA said:
Makes me wonder what the upper temperature limit is?
 
TomT said:
Here are the accepted maximum design temperature ranges for electronics. This should give you an idea...

Temperature Grades and Associated Temperature Ranges:

Temperature Grade Temperature Range
Commercial 0°C to 85°C
Industrial -40°C to 100°C
Extended -40°C to 125°C (1)
Military -55°C to 125°C

DaveinOlyWA said:
Makes me wonder what the upper temperature limit is?


85!! Damn, I just found me a new broiler!
 
I think I may have the same problem. After putting my '16 on to charge today (@28% SOC) I came back out the garage after three hours and heard a high pitched whine, really pretty loud. After reading Dave's post I wanted to see if my charger was keeping cool, and it's definitely not. The top of the Power Delivery Module was much too hot to touch for more than a few seconds and only one of coolant hoses coming out of the front of the inverter(?) was even warm. I'm not sure it's moving water, if it is it's not evident, certainly can't hear any coolant moving. Radiator fans were not running.

I unplugged the charger and the pump spun down and stopped, but the PDM is still zinging hot.

I don't have a no-touch thermometer, so I can't be precise, but it's hot. I get that it should get warm, but I'm really not comfortable with the sound of the water pump, it shouldn't be that loud in my view.

I'll get it checked out at the dealer right away.
 
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