iPlug
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:45 am

Just dropped down to the 8th bar, wife noted this on turning on the vehicle this morning, stats on return:

AHr= 52.35
SOH= 65.87%
Hx= 62.84%
Odo= 18,050 mi
QC= 30
L1/L2= 629

Warmer climates are certainly one of the major variables, so thought this milestone might take at least until spring. But it seems these 30 kWh batteries degrade significantly even during moderate/cool winter periods.

I'll be taking the Leaf into the dealership later this afternoon for them to run their confirmatory diagnostics at to then setup battery replacement.
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

SageBrush
Posts: 2489
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:56 am

@iPlug,
I noticed in your Sig "3.70 UEF heat pump water heater."

What does the number and UEF mean ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

BuckMkII
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:44 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
dwl wrote:
BuckMkII wrote:Do Nissan dealers log the use of their CHADEMOs? If not, if you wanted to abuse your battery, Denver gets pretty warm in the summer. Drive at 85 MPH up I-70 to Genesee Park (a steep climb) on a summer afternoon, zip back down to C-470, repeat until empty, then CHADEMO at Empire Nissan. You could pull this off at least twice in a day. That oughta heat the pack to a dull red glow.

Not that I'm endorsing this behavior, but the potential is there if someone thinks they need to do it.

Not a good idea to get too hot as Nissan can see what you have done. Look at battery temperature in table at viewtopic.php?p=182552#p182552


Welps, there goes the "park it fully charged under the sun" idea. Thanks for sharing that topic! Never knew that they had such info.

Does this info void the warrantee? Hard to believe that, or all cars sold from dealers in hot, sunny climes would be voided, unless only the owner is required never to park the car in the sun.
2013 SV no QC, built July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17: AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250
bar 12 lost 8/21/17
on 2/2/18: AHr = 56.1; SOH = 85.7%; Hx = 81.5; ODO = 44,444

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:12 pm

BuckMkII wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
dwl wrote:Not a good idea to get too hot as Nissan can see what you have done. Look at battery temperature in table at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p182552


Welps, there goes the "park it fully charged under the sun" idea. Thanks for sharing that topic! Never knew that they had such info.

Does this info void the warrantee? Hard to believe that, or all cars sold from dealers in hot, sunny climes would be voided, unless only the owner is required never to park the car in the sun.


I'm assuming that this info is gathered during the annual battery check? If so, then it would look awfully suspicious if the stats drastically change in years 5, 6, or 7 just as the mileage nears the end of the warranty point. Which is what eatsleafsandshoots wanted to do.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333
... awaiting firmware update

ElectricEddy
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:42 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2016
Leaf Number: 313506
Location: Nanaimo, B.C.

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:42 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
BuckMkII wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Welps, there goes the "park it fully charged under the sun" idea. Thanks for sharing that topic! Never knew that they had such info.

Does this info void the warrantee? Hard to believe that, or all cars sold from dealers in hot, sunny climes would be voided, unless only the owner is required never to park the car in the sun.


I'm assuming that this info is gathered during the annual battery check? If so, then it would look awfully suspicious if the stats drastically change in years 5, 6, or 7 just as the mileage nears the end of the warranty point. Which is what eatsleafsandshoots wanted to do.


Why not just blame climate change like everybody else? :)
Pearl White Sl
mfd date 09/16

GRA
Posts: 8676
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:59 pm

SageBrush wrote:@iPlug,
I noticed in your Sig "3.70 UEF heat pump water heater."

What does the number and UEF mean ?

See https://www.hotwater.com/uef/ and

https://www.rheem.com/understanding-energy-efficiency-in-water-heaters/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

dwl
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:31 pm

iPlug wrote:Just dropped down to the 8th bar, wife noted this on turning on the vehicle this morning, stats on return:

AHr= 52.35
SOH= 65.87%
Hx= 62.84%
Odo= 18,050 mi
QC= 30
L1/L2= 629

Warmer climates are certainly one of the major variables, so thought this milestone might take at least until spring. But it seems these 30 kWh batteries degrade significantly even during moderate/cool winter periods.

I'll be taking the Leaf into the dealership later this afternoon for them to run their confirmatory diagnostics at to then setup battery replacement.

Sorry to hear you have lost 4 bars and hopefully warranty replacement goes smoothly. Did you find your range has dropped roughly in line with change in reported SoH?
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

iPlug
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:32 pm

SageBrush wrote:@iPlug,
I noticed in your Sig "3.70 UEF heat pump water heater."

What does the number and UEF mean ?

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:@iPlug,
I noticed in your Sig "3.70 UEF heat pump water heater."

What does the number and UEF mean ?

See https://www.hotwater.com/uef/ and

https://www.rheem.com/understanding-energy-efficiency-in-water-heaters/

UEF = Uniform Energy Factor

This recently replaced the old EF rating from the DOE. It is supposed to be a better reflection of real world scenarios.

To the uninitiated, this piece from 2012 sums up EF:

Electric-resistance vs. heat-pump water heating

Up until recently, almost all electric water heaters relied on electric-resistance heat. Electric current flows through a special element with high electrical resistance, and the electricity is converted directly to heat. The conversion of electricity into heat is virtually 100% efficient—though heat loss from an electric storage-type water heater always results in an overall efficiency lower than 100%. (Note that if we’re looking at primary or source energy that the power plants use to produce the electricity, the efficiency is far lower.)

Heat pump water heaters are very different. Electricity isn’t converted directly into heat; rather it is used to move heat from one place to another. This is counter-intuitive because the heat is moved from a colder place (the room air where the water heater is located) to a warmer place (the water in the storage tank).

This seemingly magic process happens because a specialized refrigerant fluid is alternately condensed and evaporated in a closed loop. This process relies on phase changes of the refrigerant that capture and release significant amounts of heat.

A detailed explanation of the refrigerant cycle is beyond the scope of this blog. Trust me that it works. (It’s the same basic principle used in your refrigerator, which extracts heat from inside that insulated box and dumps it into your kitchen.)

The net result is that for every one kilowatt-hour (kWh) of electricity consumed, two or more kWh’s of hot water are produced. The energy factor, which is often thought of as a measure of efficiency, is 2.0 to 2.5 for most heat-pump water heaters on the market, while a 100% efficient electric-resistance water heater would have an energy factor of just 1.0.


https://www.buildinggreen.com/news-article/look-heat-pump-water-heaters
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

iPlug
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:42 pm

dwl wrote:
iPlug wrote:Just dropped down to the 8th bar, wife noted this on turning on the vehicle this morning, stats on return:

AHr= 52.35
SOH= 65.87%
Hx= 62.84%
Odo= 18,050 mi
QC= 30
L1/L2= 629

Warmer climates are certainly one of the major variables, so thought this milestone might take at least until spring. But it seems these 30 kWh batteries degrade significantly even during moderate/cool winter periods.

I'll be taking the Leaf into the dealership later this afternoon for them to run their confirmatory diagnostics at to then setup battery replacement.

Sorry to hear you have lost 4 bars and hopefully warranty replacement goes smoothly. Did you find your range has dropped roughly in line with change in reported SoH?

Not sure. It's my wife's car. A couple months ago I noticed the vehicle only had 9 bars after she told me about worsening range. She thought the year before she was getting less range than in the beginning, but I chalked it up to driving habits and did not look into it at the time. My first check was on 12/12/2017 when I saw the 9 bars left and then showed:

AHr= 53.31
SOH= 67%
Hx= 65.40%
Odo= 16,478 mi
QC= 26
L1/L2= 535

As you can see, that's a significant drop in Hx all during cool/cold winter months. The hot summers here must have also been a factor seeing where others in warm climates are also getting the biggest losses. But the 30kWh battery is losing capacity faster than the 24kWh version in more moderate climates.
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

SageBrush
Posts: 2489
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:27 pm

iPlug wrote:
SageBrush wrote:@iPlug,
I noticed in your Sig "3.70 UEF heat pump water heater."

What does the number and UEF mean ?

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:@iPlug,
I noticed in your Sig "3.70 UEF heat pump water heater."

What does the number and UEF mean ?

See https://www.hotwater.com/uef/ and

https://www.rheem.com/understanding-energy-efficiency-in-water-heaters/

UEF = Uniform Energy Factor

This recently replaced the old EF rating from the DOE. It is supposed to be a better reflection of real world scenarios.

To the uninitiated, this piece from 2012 sums up EF:

[i]Electric-resistance vs. heat-pump water heating

Up until recently, almost all electric water heaters relied on electric-resistance heat. Electric current flows through a special element with high electrical resistance, and the electricity is converted directly to heat. The conversion of electricity into heat is virtually 100% efficient—though heat loss from an electric storage-type water heater always results in an overall efficiency lower than 100%. (Note that if we’re looking at primary or source energy that the power plants use to produce the electricity, the efficiency is far lower.)

Thanks.
I used to thinking in terms of COP for heat pumps; this UEF does not sound much different although it may be trying to fold other inefficiencies into the number.

Does your heater have any TOU controls ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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