johnlocke
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:25 pm

Stanton wrote:
goldbrick wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:I wonder if someone will have made a 3rd party 18650-cell based (with active TMS) replacement pack by before the 8y 100k warranty elapses?


That is certainly possible. Who knows what the cost of an 18650 will be in 5 years? Since removing the battery pack on a Leaf is so simple, it should be easy for an enthusiast to build a replacement pack that fit in place of the original. I don't know what kind of capacity you would get or how to add the TMS though. And there could easily be issues with licensing and insurance.


You guys make it sound like designing/building a battery pack...or TMS...which would basically require a new BMS...is easy (not to mention "dropping" a 600 lb high-voltage mass)!
The reality is no one will be building a battery pack for the Leaf 1.0 except Nissan anytime soon: there's no profit in it! I'm on my second battery pack (see sig), and the take-away for me is: I will look at the Leaf 2.0 when the larger (non-Nissan) battery pack becomes available.


Why would you need a new bms? You could configure the batteries to mimic the 48 cell pairs in the original battery pack and reuse the existing bms. Use 2170 batteries instead of 18650. 2016 batteries in 42x48 array is 35 in by 40 in and less than 3 in thick. That's for a 30KWH battery (15 WH per cell). The real question is "Can you buy 2170 batteries in bulk at a low enough cost?". Tesla can make them cheap enough but will be using all their output for the foreseeable future.

As for the TMS, seal the batteries in a container with mineral oil around the batteries, add a small pump and a radiator to circulate the oil. You only need enough oil to to fill the void spaces in between the batteries and a small reservoir space above and below the batteries. The tms operates independently from the bms.

Dropping the battery pack is less difficult than yanking an engine or a tranny.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

irwinr
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:20 am
Delivery Date: 26 Mar 2015

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:22 pm

jhm614 wrote:
boxman737 wrote:I just lost the first bar on my 2016 LEAF SL with the 30 kWh battery after only 15,100 miles. The battery is losing about 1% of its capacity every 1000 miles. At this rate, I'll be down to 8 bars by roughly 35,000 miles (15% for the first bar and 7% per subsequent bar). The talk about rapid degradation in the 30 kWh batteries seems to be true. I live near Dallas and split my driving roughly evenly between highway and city speeds. I only use Level 2 chargers. My LEAF is great to drive, but the rapid battery loss is very disappointing.

Sorry to hear that, brother. Our climate is tough on the Leaf.

One question, when you get home, do you immediately plug-in and charge? If so, you might consider using the charging timer to delay the charge, giving the battery some time to cool before charging and to minimize the time spent at 100% charge. Of course, you might want to wait until you get the replacement battery first..


Our previous car was a 2013 LEAF and it didn't lose it's *first* bar until around 32,000 miles. So the fact that the 2016 30kWh version has lost 2 bars before 18,000 definitely seems much more accelerated given the climate for both cars was the same. The newer 30 kWh chemistry should be the new "lizard" chemistry and should do at least as well if not better than the 2013 / 24 kWh version.

Our LEAF is garaged and not only do we use a charging timer to delay charging we even upgraded our EVSE when we bought the 2016 model to the "Wifi enabled" JuiceBox and I wrote a custom program that delays charging until right before time to leave. IE: I tell it I want to leave at 10am tomorrow with 75% charge and the car is currently at 50% charge -- it'll compute the time needed and schedule the JuiceBox to start charging at around 9am since it would take about 1 hour to go from 50% to 75%. We rarely ever charge beyond 60-70% for most of our trips. (Granted, JuiceBox servers are so unreliable this fails a lot more often than I would like. I would not recommend anyone pay extra for the Wifi enabled JuiceBox given how unreliable their servers are.)

To make matters worse the 30 kWh model is heavier, has taller wheels and overall gets significantly less miles/kWh than our 2013 SV model. So at this point with 2 bars down and 18k miles we have about as much range as our 2013 SV had when we sold it at 37k miles, and it's still dropping fast.

Has anyone ever successfully gotten Nissan to do a warranty before all 4 bars were gone if the rate is degradation is clearly faster than intended?

jbuntz
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Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:34 pm

goldbrick wrote:I have a 2017 Model S and it's starting to look like the battery is degrading more quickly than I would expect. I've only had it for about 5 months and have only put about 3k miles on it so it's very early and hard to tell what is due to seasonal temperature change vs battery loss. Also, my commute is only 10 miles and my home town is about 5 miles end-to-end so I never really push the range. Still, come next summer, I'll probably have to get an accurate idea of what the battery is doing and decide whether to baby it or go for a replacement. I'll never hit 100k miles but I plan to keep the car for a long time so I could hit the 8 year mark. All in all, I'm not worried about it since even if it drops to 20kWh it would still suit all my needs but if I can get a battery replacement under warranty then why not? Time will tell.
Battery replacement is closer to 15kwh than 20. Mine is down 2 bars and LeafSpy says 19kwh now
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:35 pm

Has anyone ever successfully gotten Nissan to do a warranty before all 4 bars were gone if the rate is degradation is clearly faster than intended?


Not as far as we know. You'd have to establish that at least one of the cells is defective.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:01 am

irwinr wrote:Has anyone ever successfully gotten Nissan to do a warranty before all 4 bars were gone if the rate is degradation is clearly faster than intended?

That was a joke, right ? You are talking about Nissan here
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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HIOJim
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Location: King City, Oregon

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:06 am

SageBrush wrote:
irwinr wrote:Has anyone ever successfully gotten Nissan to do a warranty before all 4 bars were gone if the rate is degradation is clearly faster than intended?

That was a joke, right ? You are talking about Nissan here

irwinr makes me feel nostalgic for those innocent days before Nissan crushed all my hopes and dreams ;)
Hans (2017 VW e-Golf SE) Leased 01/16/18
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irwinr
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Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:20 am
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:28 am

Yeah well one can hope right?

It just sucks to know that the car will probably be ready for a brand new battery very shortly before I'm due to turn the car back in to the dealer at the end of the lease.

iPlug
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:52 am

Frustrating that many paid more for the 30 kWh battery via purchase or lease, yet now have a range that would be less than had they gone with the 24 kWh battery instead.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:58 pm

iPlug wrote:Frustrating that many paid more for the 30 kWh battery via purchase or lease, yet now have a range that would be less than had they gone with the 24 kWh battery instead.


Not quite. 30 kwh pack would still have a bit more range.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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cwerdna
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:36 pm

Yet another 4 bar loser at https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 438086823/. This person has a '16 SL and their FB profile says they live in Florida (no surprise).

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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