goldbrick
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Colorado front range

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:43 am

I have a 2017 Model S and it's starting to look like the battery is degrading more quickly than I would expect. I've only had it for about 5 months and have only put about 3k miles on it so it's very early and hard to tell what is due to seasonal temperature change vs battery loss. Also, my commute is only 10 miles and my home town is about 5 miles end-to-end so I never really push the range. Still, come next summer, I'll probably have to get an accurate idea of what the battery is doing and decide whether to baby it or go for a replacement. I'll never hit 100k miles but I plan to keep the car for a long time so I could hit the 8 year mark. All in all, I'm not worried about it since even if it drops to 20kWh it would still suit all my needs but if I can get a battery replacement under warranty then why not? Time will tell.

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jlv
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:03 pm

Are you using LeafSpyPro to track the battery?
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17) 32K miTesla S 75D (3/17) 22K mi
Model 3 reservation (invited to order 1/18)

boxman737
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:52 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 310424
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:55 pm

I just lost the first bar on my 2016 LEAF SL with the 30 kWh battery after only 15,100 miles. The battery is losing about 1% of its capacity every 1000 miles. At this rate, I'll be down to 8 bars by roughly 35,000 miles (15% for the first bar and 7% per subsequent bar). The talk about rapid degradation in the 30 kWh batteries seems to be true. I live near Dallas and split my driving roughly evenly between highway and city speeds. I only use Level 2 chargers. My LEAF is great to drive, but the rapid battery loss is very disappointing.

UPDATE: LeafSpy stats just after loss of first bar:
AHr=63
SOH=79%. 369V
Hx=73%
QC=5
L1/L2=430

Build date: April 2016
Possession date: Dec 2016
It presumably sat on the dealer lot all summer near Dallas at a high state of charge, but I don’t know for sure.
Last edited by boxman737 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

goldbrick
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Colorado front range

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:46 pm

jlv wrote:Are you using LeafSpyPro to track the battery?


LeafSpy but not Pro yet. When I first got LeafSpy it read around 97% SOH, now down around 92% if I remember correctly. I don't check it that often. GOM still gives me 120 miles on a full charge but that really means about 100. L2 charges almost all the time usually to 80-90%. I've been to 100% a few times to balance the cells now that weather is cooler. Never went over 85% during the summer. Lowest the battery ever got to was 9% a week ago. Usually charge when it hits around 20%.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
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Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:14 pm

I wonder if someone will have made a 3rd party 18650-cell based (with active TMS) replacement pack by before the 8y 100k warranty elapses?
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333
... awaiting firmware update

goldbrick
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Colorado front range

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:I wonder if someone will have made a 3rd party 18650-cell based (with active TMS) replacement pack by before the 8y 100k warranty elapses?


That is certainly possible. Who knows what the cost of an 18650 will be in 5 years? Since removing the battery pack on a Leaf is so simple, it should be easy for an enthusiast to build a replacement pack that fit in place of the original. I don't know what kind of capacity you would get or how to add the TMS though. And there could easily be issues with licensing and insurance.

It will be interesting but for me it's academic at this point. I drove my 10 miles to work today and it was the first time in snow. Temp was about 18 out and I cozy in the cabin and still show ~70 miles on the GOM while running the heat. Even if I had half the battery capacity I do now, it would be fine. This is after charging up to 95% last night at work before I drove home. Plus, in 8 years, I'll be retired :mrgreen:

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6252
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:18 am

boxman737 wrote:I just lost the first bar on my 2016 LEAF SL with the 30 kWh battery after only 15,100 miles. The battery is losing about 1% of its capacity every 1000 miles. At this rate, I'll be down to 8 bars by roughly 35,000 miles (15% for the first bar and 7% per subsequent bar). The talk about rapid degradation in the 30 kWh batteries seems to be true. I live near Dallas and split my driving roughly evenly between highway and city speeds. I only use Level 2 chargers. My LEAF is great to drive, but the rapid battery loss is very disappointing.
Welcome to the forum, boxman737!

I'm sorry to hear about your rapid capacity loss, but we appreciate you coming here to let us know what you are seeing. The good news, if there can be any good news in battery degradation, is that you will almost certainly receive a replacement battery under your vehicle's warranty. Hopefully you can still find use in your vehicle with a three-bar-degraded 30-kWh battery.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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jhm614
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:48 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000493
Location: Arlington, TX

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:39 am

boxman737 wrote:I just lost the first bar on my 2016 LEAF SL with the 30 kWh battery after only 15,100 miles. The battery is losing about 1% of its capacity every 1000 miles. At this rate, I'll be down to 8 bars by roughly 35,000 miles (15% for the first bar and 7% per subsequent bar). The talk about rapid degradation in the 30 kWh batteries seems to be true. I live near Dallas and split my driving roughly evenly between highway and city speeds. I only use Level 2 chargers. My LEAF is great to drive, but the rapid battery loss is very disappointing.

Sorry to hear that, brother. Our climate is tough on the Leaf.

One question, when you get home, do you immediately plug-in and charge? If so, you might consider using the charging timer to delay the charge, giving the battery some time to cool before charging and to minimize the time spent at 100% charge. Of course, you might want to wait until you get the replacement battery first..
2011 Brilliant Silver SL - 110,000 gasoline free miles so far.
4BL: 06/29/13 @ 27 months, 43,520 miles, 42.56 Ahr. New 12 bar battery: 09/09/13
4BLx2:12/31/16 @ 69 months, 99,475 miles, 42.99 Ahr.

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Stanton
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Leaf Number: 7458
Location: Plano, TX
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:04 pm

goldbrick wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:I wonder if someone will have made a 3rd party 18650-cell based (with active TMS) replacement pack by before the 8y 100k warranty elapses?


That is certainly possible. Who knows what the cost of an 18650 will be in 5 years? Since removing the battery pack on a Leaf is so simple, it should be easy for an enthusiast to build a replacement pack that fit in place of the original. I don't know what kind of capacity you would get or how to add the TMS though. And there could easily be issues with licensing and insurance.


You guys make it sound like designing/building a battery pack...or TMS...which would basically require a new BMS...is easy (not to mention "dropping" a 600 lb high-voltage mass)!
The reality is no one will be building a battery pack for the Leaf 1.0 except Nissan anytime soon: there's no profit in it! I'm on my second battery pack (see sig), and the take-away for me is: I will look at the Leaf 2.0 when the larger (non-Nissan) battery pack becomes available.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

goldbrick
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Colorado front range

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:27 pm

You are aware that people have been electrifying ICE cars for years? I would assume it is much harder to add an electric motor, batteries and controls to a former ICE car than to just replace a battery pack with known voltage and current requirements and an already existing plug, charging port, controller, etc etc etc.

Would it be easy? Doubtful. Do I expect someone to make a business out of it? Probably not. Could someone do it and then document their design so that others could copy it? Probably.

Would it be worth it? That entirely depends. I do all my own ICE car maintenance today and it pays a lot less than my day job but I have the time, tools and know-how. Plus I enjoy it, find it somewhat interesting and I save a lot of money.

I'm not advocating this for everyone but people design and build their own airplanes these days so filling a Leaf battery pack case with 18650 batteries and doing whatever controller updates would be required is something that I'm sure someone will take on at some point.

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