2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

[SageBrush]

Ebeighe, that's pretty disheartening! Would you have been better off with the Bolt and its battery temperature control system? Hindsight being 20-20 and all!

Rich

Bolt battery degradation is unknown, and the GM warranty replacement at under 60% capacity is nothing to swoon over.

OTOH, GM/LG Chem does have a excellent track record with the Volt and its active TMS

There is a whole lot of inferences and hope there:

That the Volt PHEV record translates to the Bolt
That the Volt battery health is even real. Those owners do not monitor battery degradation. The best they know is that range has remained the same for a couple of years, but they do not know if the battery reserve is being consumed.

[jbuntz]

This thread will soon have 1,000 posts. Lots of noise.

Anyway, thought I would report in on my 2017 Leaf S purchased 7/27/2017. Built 04/17. I'm in Phoenix but it was shipped in from Oregon, from what I understand soon prior to my purchase (there were running a 10K deal here in July); in other words, I don't believe it was sitting around here this summer before i bought it.

I have an openevse and mostly charge it to, say, 65% when it runs down to 30%. I've charged it to 100% a few times...
I never let it sit around at high charge.

It doesn't get driven at highway / high speeds very much, just a few miles at time a few times a week. The battery temp gauge doesn't get particularly high. I think it went to 9 bars once. We just have very high average temps.

Here's the report from LeafSpy when i first got Leafspy, and the most recent:

Code: Select all

08/06/2017
Odo 292
AHr 80.847   
SOH 100%   
Hx 96.6

11/17/2017
Odo 2727.2
Ahr 70.348   
SOH 88%   
Hx 84.95   

ok I take back my earlier comments that there was an early batch of bad batteries.

[GRA]

Bolt battery degradation is unknown, and the GM warranty replacement at under 60% capacity is nothing to swoon over.

OTOH, GM/LG Chem does have a excellent track record with the Volt and its active TMS

There is a whole lot of inferences and hope there:

That the Volt PHEV record translates to the Bolt
That the Volt battery health is even real. Those owners do not monitor battery degradation. The best they know is that range has remained the same for a couple of years, but they do not know if the battery reserve is being consumed.

They don't care, because GM was smart enough to hide capacity so that there's no degradation apparent to the user for several years. I just wish other companies had taken the same approach.

As to whether the Volt's record will translate to the Bolt, it's just as likely that its NMC with active TMS will, as AESC's without TMS will on the 2018 LEAF. And while there are undoubtedly differences between a PHEV's battery chemistry (as they are to some extent power batteries) and a BEV's (energy battery), with a PHEV battery that size it's likely they are more similar than different. The Bolt will also, in most cases, be using a smaller % of its capacity on a daily basis compared to a PHEV. And just in case the Bolt's battery doesn't prove to be durable, the Bolt comes with a warranty giving hard values, unlike the LEAF (so far). Given the available evidence, I know which one I'd trust more.

[SageBrush]

OTOH, GM/LG Chem does have a excellent track record with the Volt and its active TMS

There is a whole lot of inferences and hope there:

That the Volt PHEV record translates to the Bolt
That the Volt battery health is even real. Those owners do not monitor battery degradation. The best they know is that range has remained the same for a couple of years, but they do not know if the battery reserve is being consumed.

They don't care, because GM was smart enough to hide capacity so that there's no degradation apparent to the user for several years.

Sure, but it means that significant battery degradation may have occurred and the Volt owners are none the wiser. That will not be the case in the Bolt

[johnlocke]

OTOH, GM/LG Chem does have a excellent track record with the Volt and its active TMS

There is a whole lot of inferences and hope there:

That the Volt PHEV record translates to the Bolt
That the Volt battery health is even real. Those owners do not monitor battery degradation. The best they know is that range has remained the same for a couple of years, but they do not know if the battery reserve is being consumed.

They don't care, because GM was smart enough to hide capacity so that there's no degradation apparent to the user for several years. I just wish other companies had taken the same approach.

As to whether the Volt's record will translate to the Bolt, it's just as likely that its NMC with active TMS will, as AESC's without TMS will on the 2018 LEAF. And while there are undoubtedly differences between a PHEV's battery chemistry (as they are to some extent power batteries) and a BEV's (energy battery), with a PHEV battery that size it's likely they are more similar than different. The Bolt will also, in most cases, be using a smaller % of its capacity on a daily basis compared to a PHEV. And just in case the Bolt's battery doesn't prove to be durable, the Bolt comes with a warranty giving hard values, unlike the LEAF (so far). Given the available evidence, I know which one I'd trust more.

Nissan did the same thing for us. Why do you think the first bar doesn't drop until you hit 80% on the 16's and 17's? Most Leaf drivers don't use Leaf Spy. Until that first bar drops, they don't have a clue except that they don't have quite as much range anymore if they even notice it at all.

[GRA]

There is a whole lot of inferences and hope there:

That the Volt PHEV record translates to the Bolt
That the Volt battery health is even real. Those owners do not monitor battery degradation. The best they know is that range has remained the same for a couple of years, but they do not know if the battery reserve is being consumed.

They don't care, because GM was smart enough to hide capacity so that there's no degradation apparent to the user for several years.

Sure, but it means that significant battery degradation may have occurred and the Volt owners are none the wiser. That will not be the case in the Bolt

Certainly, but with a warranty based on hard numbers, a liquid cooled TMS, and a much longer range to start, is there currently any other semi-affordable BEV besides Tesla that's likely to still be usable for most people's commute when the pack's eight or ten years old? 238 x .6 = 142.8, which is to say that even with a battery ready for warranty replacement, it's still going to have about as much range as the 2018 LEAF does when brand new, and there's no doubt which one's going to suffer greater degradation due to heat.

[GRA]

They don't care, because GM was smart enough to hide capacity so that there's no degradation apparent to the user for several years. I just wish other companies had taken the same approach.

As to whether the Volt's record will translate to the Bolt, it's just as likely that its NMC with active TMS will, as AESC's without TMS will on the 2018 LEAF. And while there are undoubtedly differences between a PHEV's battery chemistry (as they are to some extent power batteries) and a BEV's (energy battery), with a PHEV battery that size it's likely they are more similar than different. The Bolt will also, in most cases, be using a smaller % of its capacity on a daily basis compared to a PHEV. And just in case the Bolt's battery doesn't prove to be durable, the Bolt comes with a warranty giving hard values, unlike the LEAF (so far). Given the available evidence, I know which one I'd trust more.

Nissan did the same thing for us. Why do you think the first bar doesn't drop until you hit 80% on the 16's and 17's? Most Leaf drivers don't use Leaf Spy. Until that first bar drops, they don't have a clue except that they don't have quite as much range anymore if they even notice it at all.

It's not the same thing. NIssan hides degradation on the bars while the usable capacity and range continually decrease. GM hid extra capacity that is only accessed to retain the original usable capacity, so the owner doesn't experience any range loss for years. The latter method's much more conservative (and more expensive), but it has kept the Volt's customers a lot more satisfied than Nissan's approach has kept LEAF customers.

[SageBrush]

They don't care, because GM was smart enough to hide capacity so that there's no degradation apparent to the user for several years.

Sure, but it means that significant battery degradation may have occurred and the Volt owners are none the wiser. That will not be the case in the Bolt

Certainly, but with a warranty based on hard numbers, a liquid cooled TMS, and a much longer range to start, is there currently any other semi-affordable BEV besides Tesla that's likely to still be usable for most people's commute when the pack's eight or ten years old? 238 x .6 = 142.8, which is to say that even with a battery ready for warranty replacement, it's still going to have about as much range as the 2018 LEAF does when brand new, and there's no doubt which one's going to suffer greater degradation due to heat.

If the Bolt is bought to carry out LEAF range type tasks then you are right, but if it is bought to carry out 200 mile range type tasks then unexpected, early degradation down to 60% of new is a problem.

Which brings us back to my point: we don't know yet if the Bolt will be good for a long run of time, and the Volt does not really inform us one way or another.

[LTLFTcomposite]

Still, GM has earned some trust in this area and one could justify giving them the benefit of the doubt until problems become apparent. Nissan is deserving of the exact opposite, until they sell something that's shown to hold up over time I'm inclined to assume it's another fail, particularly in the absence of TMS which most everyone agrees is required to protect these batteries.

[DaveinOlyWA]

well reports from Bolt owners it would appear that the Bolt pack is not allowed as deep a discharge as the LEAF pack and that alone will enhance longevity. I think advertising usable range is probably something Chevy decided would mask any true degradation since at this point we can only speculate on how big the Bolt pack really is. I have seen several speculative numbers and it seems like 67 kwh seems to be the accepted capacity.