joeriv
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pm

Do you have any information on the material used in the battery frame to hold battery cells? My supposition is that it’s made of steel; if so, it will retain heat compared to aluminum.
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:52 pm

joeriv wrote:Do you have any information on the material used in the battery frame to hold battery cells? My supposition is that it’s made of steel; if so, it will retain heat compared to aluminum.
Me? No, but I agree with you. Nissan could at least have mounted the packs to an aluminum heat sink with fins as a quasi-TMS, but they didn't, AFAIK.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
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Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:30 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:That really does suck. I think you'll find, though, that few people argue that SOC is the primary factor in degradation. A 100% SOC, combined with high ambient temps is often mentioned, but the SOC is still secondary.
Some would further quantify the contribution of a high SOC to degradation by adding a time factor to it.
As one will note from the graphic, there's only about a 5% increase in degradation by using the 100-25% versus 85-25%
over three thousand cycles. At 1000 cycles the difference is about 3%.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:57 pm

Some would further quantify the contribution of a high SOC to degradation by adding a time factor to it.
Yes, we pretty much all tell people that charging to 100% indicated SOC is fine if the car is driven soon afterwards. And the length of time between reaching full charge and driving can safely be increased a lot in Winter. This Winter I often charged my 2013 to 90% or even higher, and left it that way for up to several days.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:29 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Some would further quantify the contribution of a high SOC to degradation by adding a time factor to it.
Yes, we pretty much all tell people that charging to 100% indicated SOC is fine if the car is driven soon afterwards. And the length of time between reaching full charge and driving can safely be increased a lot in Winter. This Winter I often charged my 2013 to 90% or even higher, and left it that way for up to several days.
I agree with that, but I should've more clearly explained, i.e. the number of times (frequency) that type of charging is done becomes key.
That's what's conveyed in the graphic. But like you say, the time left at 100% is more key versus the frequency.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

SageBrush
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:23 pm

Prof Dahn (need he be introduced ?) likes to point out that the cycling regimens of the sort that Loren posted are a very poor reflection of the battery behaviours seen outside the laboratory. I think it was just this that attracted Tesla, that his testing protocols extrapolate well outside the lab.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:16 am

irwinr wrote:Our 2016 LEAF w/30kWh battery has now lost 3 bars after only 21k miles and less than 2 years of ownership (Brand new lease).

Since we knew the 2016 model did away with the 80% charge limit feature we purchased a fancy Wifi controlled JuiceBox and I have it controlled by a custom program I wrote which: When the car is plugged in it automatically queries the NissanConnect EV web services to find out the current battery charge level and then schedules the JuiceBox to charge overnight and limits it to only adding the required amount of kWh to the battery to bring it to 60% SOC before shutting off the charger.

That's right: We only ever charge to 60% overnight.

My same program has a website front end that we can use to schedule the car to charge to higher states of charge when needed for longer trips. So if we know we need to leave at 9am for an extended distance trip we can schedule it to charge to whatever percentage we need (Say 90%) by 9am and it does the math to figure out exactly when it needs to start charging to have the car hit 90% right at 9am. So the car is always driven immediately after charging and never sits at high states of charge. We do occasionally do a full 100% charge (Including time needed to top balance) maybe once or twice a month to keep the pack top balanced.

It would be virtually impossible for anyone to baby their battery more than we've babied this thing.

So for those arguing SOC is the most important factor: This car never sits at states of charger greater than 60% for more than maybe an hour or two (Time needed to charge to above 60% for longer trips) before being driven. And yet we've lost 30% of our battery capacity in less than 2 years and after only 21k miles. We also very very rarely use QC.

We live in Austin, TX and the car stays in a garage except when it's being driven.

So you might want to blame the hot Texas weather but.... We previously had a 2013 LEAF with the 24kWh battery and it had only lost a single capacity bar after nearly 40k miles before we sold it. That car had to endure the same warm climate and it's battery was fine. The difference in degradation between the 24 and 30 kWh batteries is staggering. Our 2013 LEAF was always charged to 80% (Using the cars 80% limit feature, which the 2016 does not have) and sat at 80% for extended periods of time since we didn't have the Wifi controlled JuiceBox at the time.

So the 2016 is degrading 3-4 times faster even though it's sitting at a lower SOC than the 2013 model. So that really rules out SOC as the primary factor. Both the 2013 and 2016 cars were in the same climate so that would suggest the heat shouldn't have been that much of a factor either.

To add insult to injury the 2016 is far less energy efficient. We can barely achieve 3.1 miles/kWh at highway speeds (70 mph) vs around 3.6 for the 2013. So our new 2016/30 kWh LEAF currently has a lower usable range than our 2013/24 kWh model did when we sold it.
your story is shocking
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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cwerdna
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:08 pm

Update to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 14#p524014.

Seems like not many updates have been happening to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... 3.75.25.29 and I don't see any 4 bar 2016 30 kWh losers there yet. (I'd do it if I find some free time...)

Here are links to the 30 kWh 4 bar losers I'm aware of, so far. Please chime if I'm missing any 30 kWh 4+ bar losers, made mistakes, double-counted someone, etc. I've included their initials or MNL user name to help avoid confusion or duplication.

1) bakermel1, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 82#p506782
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 19#p506819
2) SB, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 13#p506613
3) samrovner, Surprise, AZ, Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 24#p510024
4) LG, Chandler, AZ, Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 03#p512503
5) ST, Orlando, FL, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p514452
6) dfwpev aka Ron, Dallas, TX, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p514659
7) BB, Lake Buena Vista, FL, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 29#p514929
8) slflores91, Las Vegas, NV, Oct/Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 72#p510772
9) CC, Highland, CA, Feb 2018: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 694281530/ - says he has a '16 SV built 10/15, delivered 5/16
10) LTLFTcomposite's family member, Orlando, FL, 18.7K miles, Feb 2018: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 27#p519527 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 18#p520718
11) Maggie, Port St Lucie, FL, Feb 2018: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 24#p519524
12) iPlug, Rocklin, CA, Feb 2018: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 97#p520197
13) BB, Celebration, FL,10K miles, Mar 2018: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 594159173/
14) EVforRobert spotted, registered in Tustin, CA, 54K miles, unknown loss month: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 91#p522691, likely http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 18#p522718 at https://www.carmax.com/car/15642756
15) berclese, Chandler (?), AZ, Apr 2018: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 11#p524011[/quote]
16) KWM, Phoenix, AZ, Apr 2018: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 85#p524185
17) GN, Orlando, FL, Apr 2018: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan. ... 427581189/ (from his earlier posts it's a '16 SV)

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:13 pm

irwinr wrote:Our 2016 LEAF w/30kWh battery has now lost 3 bars after only 21k miles and less than 2 years of ownership (Brand new lease).
We live in Austin, TX and the car stays in a garage except when it's being driven.
I avoid putting our LEAF in the garage outside of winter. Since the battery does not like heat, it most certainly does not like being in an oven.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

dwl
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
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Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:38 pm

irwinr wrote:Our 2016 LEAF w/30kWh battery has now lost 3 bars after only 21k miles and less than 2 years of ownership (Brand new lease).
...snip...
We live in Austin, TX and the car stays in a garage except when it's being driven.
...snip...
These are very valuable insights and indicate that temperature (on this chemistry) may be more of a dominant factor than expected. Have you noted temperature of the battery, either temperature bars or from Leaf Spy, during the hotter months?
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

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