Coolant flush interval changed

Just noticed that my 2014 UK Leaf requires first coolant flush at 90 000km/3 years (56 000mi).
Googled for maintenance papers and found that 2012 US Leafs do it much much later:

The recommended service interval of the factory-fill coolant is 125,000 miles (200,000 km) or 15 years, whichever comes first.

What the heck? It is much more unreasonable than flushing brake fluid every 2 years in every situation (legal directives blabla).

What and when changed? Older Leaf had charger in the back. So maybe more coolant was used. That doesn't change the fact that there is no extreme heat sources in the coolant loop.

That would be another maintenance schedule I would opt out of. It's all about profit.

Warranty isn't even compromised if I don't do it.
Also they ask like 30€ for that if I do it with annual checkup. That is literally the price of OEM coolant
(At least for my BMW it costs 45€ directly from dealer). Can't see a lot of profit there.

I do however lose a stamp in my service book. I'm afraid that 2nd owner will want a discount from me for "not servicing correctly". :?

There is a severe and a normal service schedule for the coolant. In a severe stop and go environment they recommend flushing coolant more often. Where I live I would go with flushing the coolant at 30,000 to 60,000 miles since I live in a Semi-Tropical area where roadway temperatures can be over 100 degrees much of the year. Corrosion and algae will reduce efficiency and a coolant change or two is much cheaper than replacing a rotted out radiator.

Brake fluid is hydroscopic so flushing it every year or two is standard even in an ICE vehicle and has been the norm for at least 20 years now being even more critical with an ABS pump and valve assembly along with traction control.

One business guru put it this way - "Eventually one will have to face the Law of the Price Tag where the longer you put something off the more it is going to cost you." Coolant and brake fluid flushes done regularly can cost hundreds over the life of the car but have the potential to save you thousands of dollars in parts replacement costs. That is of course if your one who does not flip their vehicles every two or three years. If you do flip every two years and don't maintain then the next owner will then be the one paying the price for the previous owners lack of maintenance.

arnis said:

Just noticed that my 2014 UK Leaf requires first coolant flush at 90 000km/3 years (56 000mi).
Googled for maintenance papers and found that 2012 US Leafs do it much much later:

The recommended service interval of the factory-fill coolant is 125,000 miles (200,000 km) or 15 years, whichever comes first.

What the heck? It is much more unreasonable than flushing brake fluid every 2 years in every situation (legal directives blabla).

What and when changed? Older Leaf had charger in the back. So maybe more coolant was used. That doesn't change the fact that there is no extreme heat sources in the coolant loop.

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My 2015 USA Leaf has initial coolant replacement at 125,000 miles (200,000 km) or 15 years--the same as the 2011 owner manual. Both manuals caution that more frequent coolant changes are required if anything other than Nissan long-life coolant and distilled water is used to top off. Perhaps the UK factory uses conventional coolant and tap water instead of long-life coolant and distilled water for the factory fill.

Gerry

Thanks. So we now know that in US it is always at 125 000 miles for every Leaf version.

How about vehicles made in Japan or for Japan market?

UK also uses OEM longlife (why not). I checked the freezing point and this fluid is very concentrated (-40C / -40F), even less.
Will check it again just before next service.

The loss of corrosian inhibitors is equally important to consider and probably more so for me due to our higher Summer temps. Remember that the manuals reccomendations are not hard and fast rules and may need to be over ridden in more severe climates. Under Ideal conditions yes one might get by with the light service schedule but....

There is no such thing as severe climate for inhibitors (including ICE vehicles). ICE is exhausting for coolant incl inhibitors.
Coolant is either cold (down to-20C -4F) or lukewarm (60C 140F) in Leaf.
System is sealed, liquid not hydrophilic, doest evaporate and it is not even stressed in the system.
Practically conditions are the same as in the original bottle coolant is transported from factory.

arnis said:

There is no such thing as severe climate for inhibitors (including ICE vehicles). ICE is exhausting for coolant incl inhibitors.
Coolant is either cold (down to-20C -4F) or lukewarm (60C 140F) in Leaf.
System is sealed, liquid not hydrophilic, doest evaporate and it is not even stressed in the system.
Practically conditions are the same as in the original bottle coolant is transported from factory.

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However its still a vented system with an expansion tank. During hot weather it will vent into the expansion tank and then draw it back in. Yes the volume won't be a great as in an ICE vehicle but there will still be a moderate exchange. Here in our semi-tropical climate ingestion of mold spores into the system can become a bigger problem than loosing low temperature protection. In chiller systems that have sealed coolant circulators which run in a similar temperature range mold/algea have been an issue requiring the systems to be flushed and treated with algecide. Yes mold/algea causes corrosion and its presense prevents proper thermal transfer.

RockyNv said:

There is a severe and a normal service schedule for the coolant. In a severe stop and go environment they recommend flushing coolant more often. Where I live I would go with flushing the coolant at 30,000 to 60,000 miles since I live in a Semi-Tropical area where roadway temperatures can be over 100 degrees much of the year. Corrosion and algae will reduce efficiency and a coolant change or two is much cheaper than replacing a rotted out radiator.

Brake fluid is hydroscopic so flushing it every year or two is standard even in an ICE vehicle and has been the norm for at least 20 years now being even more critical with an ABS pump and valve assembly along with traction control.

One business guru put it this way - "Eventually one will have to face the Law of the Price Tag where the longer you put something off the more it is going to cost you." Coolant and brake fluid flushes done regularly can cost hundreds over the life of the car but have the potential to save you thousands of dollars in parts replacement costs. That is of course if your one who does not flip their vehicles every two or three years. If you do flip every two years and don't maintain then the next owner will then be the one paying the price for the previous owners lack of maintenance.

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I really doubt a LEAF coolant in any climate in the US will need changing anywhere near that much, not even in the desert or Florida. I did my first flush on my brake fluid on a 2005 Tacoma in an area with high moisture and they fluid came out looking new. Even the rear slaves were clean and fine. EV cooling systems are not subjected to the the extreme temperatures and temp swings an ICE has. I had a 10 year old EV with the same coolant. and no issues of any kind. Flushing brake fluid is not cheap either nor needed at those intervals.

On coolant that does not get hot enough to kill algea or bacteria I still would not chance leaving it in for as long as the mild service schedule reccommends. You'd be amazed or rather shocked when you've had to remediate a chiller system that rarely sees temps over 130 degrees almost chocked with algea after 5 years. These were closed systems with no mixed metals made up of stainless steel tube exchangers and pvc plumbing. After having to clean up 36 of these units all similarly impacted its once bitten twice shy as they say.

When your brake fluid no longer looks like new then you've waited way too long especially on a vehicle with ABS and Traction Control. I sat with the engineers who designed the ABS systems one on one and it was agreed that a $3 to $6 bottle of brake fluid every year or two is really cheap insurance against ABS Control Valve and Pump issues. It should be clear as water and not syrupy in color to any degree. While its not 100% guaranteed that every one who skips a brake flush or two will have a problem however the chance of having an episode that poses an endagerment to life and property from skipping regular brake flushes is too great to let it slide. A brake fluid flush is easy and cheap at $6 for the brake fluid and $15 to $30 for the vacuum bleader.

Or simply test it and you know for sure!

RockyNv said:

While its not 100% guaranteed that every one who skips a brake flush or two will have a problem however the chance of having an episode that poses an endagerment to life and property from skipping regular brake flushes is too great to let it slide.

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Bah. My farm truck, with 205,000 miles has it's original brake fluid and coolant. Besides a sticky caliper I just replaced, all is well and all fluids look like new. Same for my Suburban, 145,000 miles. You have fun with all the extra maintenance; I'll pass.

I sat with the engineers who designed the ABS systems one on one and it was agreed that a $3 to $6 bottle of brake fluid every year or two is really cheap insurance against ABS Control Valve and Pump issues

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The issue is with the $180-$250 labor charge, not that $6 (unless the dealer sells it!) bottle of fluid. Likewise that $20 (or $45) bottle of antifreeze. Your position and the one in the post above mine make nice bookends for the extremes. ;-)

LeftieBiker said:

I sat with the engineers who designed the ABS systems one on one and it was agreed that a $3 to $6 bottle of brake fluid every year or two is really cheap insurance against ABS Control Valve and Pump issues

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The issue is with the $180-$250 labor charge, not that $6 (unless the dealer sells it!) bottle of fluid. Likewise that $20 (or $45) bottle of antifreeze. Your position and the one in the post above mine make nice bookends for the extremes. ;-)

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If you don't know you don't know. I have had to re-mediate enough cars, commercial chillers, industrial equipment working on them for the past 45 some odd years to fully understand the high cost repairs one can face by skipping fluid flushes and have seen first hand the results on many, many occasions over those years. I maintained multiple factories employing many hundreds of people with trucks, lifts and other equipment and a well regulated maintenance schedule with fluid flushes absolutely saved more money than it cost without exception.

The extreme is the head in the sand type person that has wheel lockups, ABS control valve failures, overheats, blows a head gasket, deals with rotten radiators, gets failed water pumps, has to replace heater cores and thinks these are all normal events when they are all signs of lack of maintenance. Yes some fail randomly do to defects but most failures are from lack of maintenance. These items without question fail far less often when you flush your fluids regularly and keep things fresh. Even at the absurd price gouging of $20 per gallon its still cheaper to maintain then skip maintenance. If the vehicle absolutely requires $45 per gallon antifreeze and there is no equivalent from more mainstream sources then one would have to question purchasing that vehicle in the first place however maintaining is still cheaper in the long run unless you turn in a vehicle every few years and leave it to the next owner to deal with the problems to pay for the long term consequences. Some may claim they got away with maintenance on some little used vehicle but these are the exceptions and not the rule. Repair shops without question make a lot of money off people who skip maintenance requiring avoidable repairs and that is the reality of the matter.

I can't afford the $X00 an hour charges either so I learned to do it myself and enjoy cars that run 20+ years without major repairs. A properly maintained vehicle does not break down as often with most of the maintenance being so simple that you can do it yourself in a few minutes. I still have my circa 1952 power equipment in working order and have a 1978 Fiat Spider Turbo Diesel with around 500,000 miles on it that still is up to being a daily driver so I must be doing something right and for the most part all its cost me per vehicle is a few bottles of brake fluid and several gallons of relatively cheap antifreeze besides normal oil/filter changes saving me tens of thousands of dollars in unnecessary repairs and premature vehicle replacements over the past 45 years.

TomT said:

Or simply test it and you know for sure!

RockyNv said:

While its not 100% guaranteed that every one who skips a brake flush or two will have a problem however the chance of having an episode that poses an endagerment to life and property from skipping regular brake flushes is too great to let it slide.

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This is exactly what I like to do. So my 2y4mo Leaf has 1% water contamination. My BMW (changed fluid like 3years ago) has 2%. Recommendation to change starts at 3%, 5% is dangerous. There are also other values like copper ions and pH.


Coolant is pretty much sealed system. Also fluid is toxic and I've never seen algae in coolant systems with proper coolant used (not tap water), even 20yo vehicles.
Tesla has Powerwall/Powerpack and Superchargers - I believe those coolant systems also are pretty much maintenance free.

arnis said:

TomT said:

Or simply test it and you know for sure!

RockyNv said:

While its not 100% guaranteed that every one who skips a brake flush or two will have a problem however the chance of having an episode that poses an endangerment to life and property from skipping regular brake flushes is too great to let it slide.

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This is exactly what I like to do. So my 2y4mo Leaf has 1% water contamination. My BMW (changed fluid like 3years ago) has 2%. Recommendation to change starts at 3%, 5% is dangerous. There are also other values like copper ions and pH.


Coolant is pretty much sealed system. Also fluid is toxic and I've never seen algae in coolant systems with proper coolant used (not tap water), even 20yo vehicles.
Tesla has Powerwall/Powerpack and Superchargers - I believe those coolant systems also are pretty much maintenance free.

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Using the water test strips in the brake reservoir can help give an indication but the copper and other contaminants generally are deeper in the system so if you have to drain off and replenish to test for that your already in for a good portion of the pound and not just a penny so it usually makes better sense for me to just do the whole job and flush the system at that time. Plus you usually have to mail out to a test lab like Blackstone and wait for the results to get a good copper test and such which adds expense so for me its cheaper and easier to just use the calendar method.

Your young so there is still time would be the flippant answer however I have seen plenty of algae issues, especially with mixed metals it can corrode and clog even a 1 1/2 inch coolant port. If your not skirting on the cusp of severe service you could get away with the extended schedule however many are so close to being classified as in severe service due to the circumstance of where they drive the safe answer is to follow the severe service schedule. Yes while coolant is toxic to humans and pets its not really going to kill algae for as long as one would like to believe. In an ICE vehicle the 200+ degree coolant temperatures help keep the algae down inside the water jacket however on systems that do not warm up to scalding, algae becomes a bigger issue. Personally I use non-toxic environmentally safe coolants whenever I can which avoids environment impact fees if you have traffic accident that empties your coolant on the roadway and is part of being a better steward of the environment.

Rocky, I understand your position. I'm not young either, though, and I've seen what does and doesn't generally work in the way of preventive automotive maintenance. You keep extrapolating your experience with industrial equipment to cars, and then expecting things to be even worse with the Leaf, because it doesn't heat the fluids as much. So far, there is no evidence to indicate that not replacing Leaf brake fluid and coolant at 2 years will result in significant extra failures. Also, you were originally quoting just the cost of these fluids, minus the labor charge, which is almost all of the total cost, so I noted that. It's great when people can do their own maintenance - I used to do it when I was in better health. You have to realize, though, that most Leaf drivers are faced with predatory dealerships who want to make up for the modest amount of maintenance required by overcharging for it, and exaggerating what is needed. They also can't do brake fluid flushes, and shouldn't attempt them.

Personally, I think that climate and usage matter much more than time, and this is also what the service requirements reflect. It isn't that the service schedules instruct us to have everything done every two years; the problem is that dealerships ignore the "Normal" service parameters, and insist on using the "extreme" ones instead.

On the brake fluid there is plenty of evidence on ABS systems in cars that skipping brake fluid changes is a very bad idea and having had some very highly respected ABS system engineers sitting at my dinner table discussing this very topic reinforced that its especially bad for ABS system pumps and controllers.

The electric cars cooling system has more in common with the industrial equipment since the both do not heat up the coolant enough to kill bacteria/algae like ICE equipped vehicles do.

When you roll the dice on either of these you are taking a chance on loosing on a deal that will be much more expensive than the rather small relative cost of following the severe service schedule.

Most people that skimp on maintenance and flip their vehicles every few years won't usually see this as it will be on the next poor slob who really can't afford a new vehicle so he buys the used one and keeps it until the original owners lack of maintenance begins to hit his wallet.

We can't make a blanket statement that everyone can just throw caution to the wind and get away with skipping along on the light service schedule to save a little money up front and get away with it. In too many cases eventually someone will have to pay the piper for that course of action be it the first or fifth owner.

I see that there are different opinions, and I also have mine... I have been working on my own cars for 40 years (I've had at least 15 of them). My cars have only gone to the dealers for recalls, and big things like a transmission job. I do not want to sound that I know better than anyone here-- so please do not take any offense. Over the years, I have gone from over-servicing, to underservicing, and feel I have found a good balance, seeing the effects of servicing. I keep all my cars for many years.

When it comes to antifreeze and Brake fluid, I don't feel cars are such delicate flowers that we sometimes make them out to be. They are made to very high levels of quality, since the brakes protect people, and the car companies are not going to get sued if someone's brakes fail because the have not changed the fluid... I have bought used cars with the antifreeze actually brown with rust, but worked perfectly for years after I used radiator cleaner and new antifreeze. The same thing with brake fluid..

I currently own five cars, and my time-clock on all of them includes changing the antifreeze, brake fluid, and power steering fluid every 4 years... I do them all together, and have never had a problem. ALSO, with the Leaf, the antifreeze is not exposed to any high temperature of combustion, so it will stay good for many years...

I would say that when you change the BIG BATTERY, then have them change the antifreeze. As I have said in many of my posts... Don't worry so much and just enjoy driving the car..