DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12992
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:47 am

baustin wrote:
baustin wrote:I took mine in today to get the warranty replacement started. Initially, they told me it would take about two hours. When I got there, all they said they needed was to plug in the Consult Tool and get a battery status printout of only 8 bars showing. They're supposed to call tomorrow, after it's ordered, to tell me when the replacement battery will arrive.


Replacement traction battery arrived on October 19th and installed this morning. I took this reading just before I left the dealership.

Oct 20, 2017 - AHr=65.40, SOH=100%, Hx=100.00%, odo=25,771 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2262


Exercise the pack! Get a good start in life. Ahr should be 67.36 and Hx will bloat to 105ish

Glad to see the VERY quick turnaround!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mtndrew1
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:52 am
Location: Gardena CA

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:49 pm

I took my car into the dealer for its appointment this morning and the battery check came back all five stars of course with 4 capacity bars missing.

Then the service writer came back and said the odometer had been rolled back and the car really had 60,129 miles on it despite the odometer showing 37,500! Yikes!

The Carfax report and Nissan's database show the last service visit in July of 2017 with ~37,000 miles on the odometer and as it's technically impossible to drive a Nissan Leaf 25,000 miles in ten weeks I asked if the OBD tool was ever wrong. They confirmed that it's sometimes incorrect. LeafSpy, Carfax, and the Nissan service database all align with the visible odometer so the dealer is going to call Nissan on Monday and see what's up.

Apparently this dealer has had at least two other (non-Leaf) Nissans erroneously show a dramatically higher odometer readings on the tech tool as opposed to the dash reading so I'll wait until Monday's results from Nissan corporate before freaking out and confronting the selling dealer and Carfax.

The dealer says that if Nissan corporate goes by the dash odometer reading then they'll order a replacement battery for the car on Monday and it'll arrive "in four to six weeks" which seems to be the standard response. The service writer did say that they've been arriving faster than that, however. Fingers crossed for Monday.
2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range

2013 Nissan Leaf S + QC sold with warranty pack replacement

2015 Kia Soul EV+ Lease returned 10/14/17 45,000 miles w/ 13.8% degradation.

silverone
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:29 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2017
Location: Eastern OH

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:54 pm

achewt wrote:I have definitely seen a trend of Ahr/SOH swinging fairly consistently with ambient temperature since I started tracking data in November 2015. I first posted about it in my regular 6 month cost update Nov 2016 http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update- ... 2-5-years/ (scroll down to the header on LeafSpy). The pattern continued through last winter, noted at http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update- ... 117000-km/ in May of this year. I saw the trend continue into the summer - in June 2017 my Ahr reached 55.89 and 85% SOH again (same as from the previous August, after going to a high of 93%.

I finally lost my first bar after being below 85% for a few months on August 31, 2017. Stats as follows:
Ahr=54.50, SOH=83%, Hx=79.72%, odo=127,413km, 53 QCs
(I haven't posted the L1/L2s, because I often use the charge timer, which inflates this value substantially, counts once when you plug in, another when it starts charging)

I'm now 4,000 km further along here into October, and my stats are now back to (as of Oct 10):
Ahr=55.68, SOH=85%, Hx=82.63%, odo=131,562km
The lost bar hasn't re-appeared... but I'll be curious to see if it does!

We had a nice hot summer from June through first two weeks of September (+30C most days), then high 20C throughout September, and only recently has it cooled down and become rainy. Start here -> http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_da ... 7&Month=6#, and click on the next month button to flip through and get an idea of the temps the car sits in all day long in a baking asphalt parking lot. At night, it is in a carport that is built into north-facing hillside, so it does get a chance to cool down usually to 5 or 6 bars, but each day was up to 7. Now with the cool weather in October, starting each day with 4 bars, and after charging for a few hours just before I leave work, it is back up to 5 bars.

TLDR; - in my experience, you can only trend your own personal LeafSpy data year-over-year with roughly similar climate conditions. So I'll carry on and expect to see 87-88% SOH by November, where it will plateau for a few months, then drop right back down in the spring and reach a low by the end of summer 2018. I'm going to take a stab at 80% (assuming I continue with similar commute).


Thank you for posting as well as the detail you've put into data collection.

My climate is remarkably similar to yours based on temperatures, with yours being a little warmer in summer and cooler in spring/fall. Winters appear approximately the same. Thanks to wunderground.com for helping me translate metric units to freedom units for comparison :) My annual distance driven is also similar.

While I don't anticipate making it to 70,000+ miles before losing my first bar, your year-over-year data suggests that my first bar may last well into next summer. After a wild spring, my data has settled into an Hx and SOH around 89 as well as AHrs in the 57.5 to 59 range. Winter temperatures should pump up my readings significantly, although I'm sure I'll never approach the middle 60s in AHrs again.

I still maintain based on this data swing based on ambient/battery temperatures that it would be difficult to evaluate a Leaf's battery condition in winter - below 40 degrees F - based on juiced readings. This would make it hard to buy a used Leaf and know battery condition from November-April north of the 37th parallel outside of the Pacific Northwest.

Achewt, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see you regain your lost bar briefly when your ambient temperatures maintain around 0C and a battery temperature of not more than 15C.
2013 SL with Premium package - build date 5/13. 12 bar car with 53,000 miles and counting... Trying to nurse 12 bars to 60,000 miles and beyond if possible!

2014 Volt - 48,000+ miles

achewt
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:45 am
Delivery Date: 09 May 2014
Location: Nelson, BC

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:29 pm

silverone wrote:
achewt wrote:I have definitely seen a trend of Ahr/SOH swinging fairly consistently with ambient temperature since I started tracking data in November 2015. I first posted about it in my regular 6 month cost update Nov 2016 http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update- ... 2-5-years/ (scroll down to the header on LeafSpy). The pattern continued through last winter, noted at http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update- ... 117000-km/ in May of this year. I saw the trend continue into the summer - in June 2017 my Ahr reached 55.89 and 85% SOH again (same as from the previous August, after going to a high of 93%.

I finally lost my first bar after being below 85% for a few months on August 31, 2017. Stats as follows:
Ahr=54.50, SOH=83%, Hx=79.72%, odo=127,413km, 53 QCs
(I haven't posted the L1/L2s, because I often use the charge timer, which inflates this value substantially, counts once when you plug in, another when it starts charging)

I'm now 4,000 km further along here into October, and my stats are now back to (as of Oct 10):
Ahr=55.68, SOH=85%, Hx=82.63%, odo=131,562km
The lost bar hasn't re-appeared... but I'll be curious to see if it does!

We had a nice hot summer from June through first two weeks of September (+30C most days), then high 20C throughout September, and only recently has it cooled down and become rainy. Start here -> http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_da ... 7&Month=6#, and click on the next month button to flip through and get an idea of the temps the car sits in all day long in a baking asphalt parking lot. At night, it is in a carport that is built into north-facing hillside, so it does get a chance to cool down usually to 5 or 6 bars, but each day was up to 7. Now with the cool weather in October, starting each day with 4 bars, and after charging for a few hours just before I leave work, it is back up to 5 bars.

TLDR; - in my experience, you can only trend your own personal LeafSpy data year-over-year with roughly similar climate conditions. So I'll carry on and expect to see 87-88% SOH by November, where it will plateau for a few months, then drop right back down in the spring and reach a low by the end of summer 2018. I'm going to take a stab at 80% (assuming I continue with similar commute).


Thank you for posting as well as the detail you've put into data collection.

My climate is remarkably similar to yours based on temperatures, with yours being a little warmer in summer and cooler in spring/fall. Winters appear approximately the same. Thanks to wunderground.com for helping me translate metric units to freedom units for comparison :) My annual distance driven is also similar.

While I don't anticipate making it to 70,000+ miles before losing my first bar, your year-over-year data suggests that my first bar may last well into next summer. After a wild spring, my data has settled into an Hx and SOH around 89 as well as AHrs in the 57.5 to 59 range. Winter temperatures should pump up my readings significantly, although I'm sure I'll never approach the middle 60s in AHrs again.

I still maintain based on this data swing based on ambient/battery temperatures that it would be difficult to evaluate a Leaf's battery condition in winter - below 40 degrees F - based on juiced readings. This would make it hard to buy a used Leaf and know battery condition from November-April north of the 37th parallel outside of the Pacific Northwest.

Achewt, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see you regain your lost bar briefly when your ambient temperatures maintain around 0C and a battery temperature of not more than 15C.


You're welcome! I agree with you on your assessment WRT evaluating potential used vehicles. Cheers.
Ocean Blue 2014 SL, 133,000km as of mid-Oct 2017, back up to 85% (from low of 83%!) SOH
1 bar lost Aug 31/17 @ 54.5Ahr 83%SOH 79.72%Hx 127,413km
Commuting 142km round-trip; level 2 at home, level 1 at work
http://kootenayEVfamily.ca

mtndrew1
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:52 am
Location: Gardena CA

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:52 pm

The dealer was reading my odometer from the Nissan tool in kilometers which is why it said I was over 60,000.

As such I’m within the warranty period with four bars lost and the battery has been ordered for my car. “Four weeks.”
2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range

2013 Nissan Leaf S + QC sold with warranty pack replacement

2015 Kia Soul EV+ Lease returned 10/14/17 45,000 miles w/ 13.8% degradation.

leafdriving
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:25 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Oct 2017

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:20 pm

All your posts really did help. I came to the feeling that it's not that bad and it is what it is. I had already started just "driving" it like a car and not worrying about stuff.

Well yesterday I Level 2 charged it to 100%. I hadn't really fully charged the thing in about 4 months and I figured it'd be good to re-balance the battery pack. Today I hooked up LeafSpy to see if the numbers changed drastically because of the 100% charge/re-balance and I got these numbers (my first post's numbers are included first):

10/08/17: AHr= 54.98 SOH= 84% SOC= 70.9% Hx= 81.09% 384.78V -0.45A odo= 23,798 3 QCs & 1417 L1/L2s
10/30/17: AHr= 54.69 SOH= 83% SOC= 90.3% Hx= 80.29% 392.65V -1.12A odo= 23,980 3 QCs & 1429 L1/L2s

webb14leafs wrote:I don't see why you think you will be down to 9 bars in late 2018. If your car is currently 4 years old, that means you're losing roughly 4% capacity per year. In 18 months you should still have 11 bars at that rate.

I just lost my first bar last week. 2014 (late 2013 build date) S with 22,000 miles and only 6 QCs. 84% SOH. It had 87% SOH when I bought it in April. I live in south Florida and the summers are long and brutal. Hopefully my degradation rate holds to about 5-6% per year. I drive 40 miles per day and also have free Level 2 charging at work, so I really only need about 30 miles of range.


This is why I had a feeling that I'll be down to 9 bars shortly after my warranty ends. Just 3 weeks later and only 182 miles later, I've lost 0.29 AHr and 1% SOH. Sorry to ask again but is this normal?

Reddy
Posts: 1496
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:09 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 006828
Location: Pasco, WA

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:34 pm

leafdriving wrote:This is why I had a feeling that I'll be down to 9 bars shortly after my warranty ends. Just 3 weeks later and only 182 miles later, I've lost 0.29 AHr and 1% SOH. Sorry to ask again but is this normal?
Of course that's normal. Remember, Nissan devised the warranty. :(
Reddy
2011 SL; 9 bar, 45.80 AHr; 45,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

Hammersholt
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:38 am
Delivery Date: 10 Aug 2013
Leaf Number: 000596
Location: Denmark

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:55 am

Hi Leafdriving,

Maybe you can use my data to evaluate. I live in Denmark, relative cold country.
My leaf is from august 2013, and have 19.484 miles. This is data from today:

AHr =59.78
SOH = 91%
SOC = 96.1%
395.05V
Hx = 91.38%
38 QCs
899 L1/L2s

I still have 12 bars and dont know when I Will loose my first one.

mxp
Posts: 747
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:32 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Fremont, CA

Re: Lost my first bar- Your thoughts please.

Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:58 am

Hi,
Losing the 12th bar (~55Ahr) and 11th bar (~51Ahr) will happen quickly, at least that's how I've experienced it with both our 2011 Leafs.
Then, it takes a long time to lose the 10th and 9th bars. Our 2 Leafs were driven on different commute ranges and experienced different charging profiles throughout the a typical week.

Here's some old data if you're interested in the behavior of both our 2011 Leafs: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12789&start=800#p486628

We've since gotten new replacement batteries in our 2011 Leafs. Based on our past 5 - 6 year experiences, I would say the one thing that definitely helps with battery health is: Drive it within the hour of a full charge. My wife's car receives 2 full charges per day and her battery was never worse off than mine.

The next thing we shall avoid this time around, is depleting the battery down low, say to 2 bars. We'll try our best to use the vehicle down to 4 bars (lowest) before the next charge up.

For my car (lets call it the Silver Leaf): I would charge mine (to 80%) but barely use the vehicle some days of the week. The car will just be sitting there mostly @ 80% charge. I am trying to avoid this now the best that I can with my new battery, but it's difficult to time it right....

The climate in the SF Bay Area doesn't do much harm to the batteries. We park/charge both our vehicles outside the garage for the last 5 - 6 years. Lots of QC'ing doesn't do much harm either.


leafdriving wrote:All your posts really did help. I came to the feeling that it's not that bad and it is what it is. I had already started just "driving" it like a car and not worrying about stuff.

Well yesterday I Level 2 charged it to 100%. I hadn't really fully charged the thing in about 4 months and I figured it'd be good to re-balance the battery pack. Today I hooked up LeafSpy to see if the numbers changed drastically because of the 100% charge/re-balance and I got these numbers (my first post's numbers are included first):

10/08/17: AHr= 54.98 SOH= 84% SOC= 70.9% Hx= 81.09% 384.78V -0.45A odo= 23,798 3 QCs & 1417 L1/L2s
10/30/17: AHr= 54.69 SOH= 83% SOC= 90.3% Hx= 80.29% 392.65V -1.12A odo= 23,980 3 QCs & 1429 L1/L2s

webb14leafs wrote:I don't see why you think you will be down to 9 bars in late 2018. If your car is currently 4 years old, that means you're losing roughly 4% capacity per year. In 18 months you should still have 11 bars at that rate.

I just lost my first bar last week. 2014 (late 2013 build date) S with 22,000 miles and only 6 QCs. 84% SOH. It had 87% SOH when I bought it in April. I live in south Florida and the summers are long and brutal. Hopefully my degradation rate holds to about 5-6% per year. I drive 40 miles per day and also have free Level 2 charging at work, so I really only need about 30 miles of range.


This is why I had a feeling that I'll be down to 9 bars shortly after my warranty ends. Just 3 weeks later and only 182 miles later, I've lost 0.29 AHr and 1% SOH. Sorry to ask again but is this normal?

BuckMkII
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:13 am

Just out of curiosity: if you buy a used Leaf and get down to eight bars within five years, can Nissan deny the replacement if the previous owner didn't do the stupid annual battery check?

Matters not to me, since the only way my battery would be that bad within the five year clock is if I set the car on fire...
2013 SV no QC, built July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17: AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250
bar 12 lost 8/21/17
on 2/2/18: AHr = 56.1; SOH = 85.7%; Hx = 81.5; ODO = 44,444

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