2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

ddh1313 said:

I actually think the GOM is extremely accurate (ducking under the table now). If I see X range remaining and continue to drive at or below that speed until the car dies on the side of the road, it will have been almost spot on. I think the perception of it being unreliable is mainly due to that fact that a typical use case does NOT involve arriving at a charger with "---" on the GOM even though that technically is the capability of the car. Seeing triple digits at 100% is at least looking up I think, especially with some miles on the clock.

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Yepir. Us too. GOM is very accurate for us. Probably has to do with the kind of driving we do. I also think we have seen very little degradation. Even on a cooler morning like Sunday, maybe 4 degrees c, a full charge before our road trip was 192 km. Depending on the route we take it’s actually pretty accurate. We pre heat so not much energy used in heating. This climate definitely agrees with a 2016 leaf.

LeftieBiker said:

ddh1313 said:

I actually think the GOM is extremely accurate (ducking under the table now). If I see X range remaining and continue to drive at or below that speed until the car dies on the side of the road, it will have been almost spot on. I think the perception of it being unreliable is mainly due to that fact that a typical use case does NOT involve arriving at a charger with "---" on the GOM even though that technically is the capability of the car. Seeing triple digits at 100% is at least looking up I think, especially with some miles on the clock.

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Because of the way it works, it will work well for some driving scenarios, like yours. Essentially, your last few minutes of driving before shutting the car off at home happen to use virtually the same KWHs per mile as your overall average. It will not, however, work well for most driving scenarios, for most people.

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+1

My 30 kwh LEAF would show 130 miles, I would get 105 -115 so not real different. But my normal way home was from the North where there is a 500 ft drop from the freeway to my neighborhood and that was good for adding .1 -.2 miles per kwh so an overestimate was expected and normal and this actually the case for most.

Most people don't live on the freeway so their range estimate (which they expect to get while on the freeway) will be bloated because that is how they end EVERY driving day.

So in a sense, I can say the GOM is consistent. "Accurate?" ummm... no.

amissionleaf said:

amissionleaf said:

just to report that my '17 leaf got a firmware update today. I don't have any leafspy data but I feel the update added about 15 - 20 miles to the remaining range reading. the longest range I saw in last summer was about 125 miles with a full charge. Today the range is around 105 with a full charge before the update, and showing 102 remaining + 22 driven right after update. The car was built 11/2016 and I got it in march 2017, now has 20250 miles on it.

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this morning (the day after SW update) the GOM shows 125 miles range after a full home L2 charge,

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I did an experiment to find out what is my leaf's current range after the sw update. I did a full charge in the morning the day before yesterday, I went my normal commute without charging it yesterday. last night before I head home, the dash showed I have run 96.5 miles with 17% charge left. Since the distance to home is around 17 miles and I don't want to risk to fully discharge the pack, so I connected it to a 110v power outlet. 100 min later, the dash shows it added 8% charge to 25%. When I got home, the remaining charge dropped to 7% and the total distance I had is 117.7 miles. so I guess the range of my pack for my commute need (mixed local and highway, but sometime slow sometimes up to 75 mph, a/c most time on) is around 115 miles. pretty happy with the result at 20000+ miles on it now.

Do you know what the range, measured again by your commute, was before the update? Sorry if you already mentioned that somewhere.

LeftieBiker said:

Do you know what the range, measured again by your commute, was before the update? Sorry if you already mentioned that somewhere.

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Sorry I didn't measure this kind of range before the sw update. What I can recall was before the update, when I drove a bit over 80 miles at a full charge, I would get battery low warning with about 18% charge left and this happened quite some times. this time I didn't even get this warning at 96.5 miles with 17% charge left. I still remember last night it gave battery low warning at 14% charge left.

Leaf battery degradation vary between packs and owners but for a specific pack the degradation would be kind of consistent. According to the graph of the degradation over months on this forum, I would guess the miles read when 4th bar is lost would be about 3.6x of the miles read when the first bar is lost. Being that said, if you lose your 1st bar at 30000 miles, most likely you will lose your 4th bar around 108000 miles if no changes in location, charging pattern and driving habit. then most likely you won't get a free battery replacement.

amissionleaf said:

LeftieBiker said:

Do you know what the range, measured again by your commute, was before the update? Sorry if you already mentioned that somewhere.

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Sorry I didn't measure this kind of range before the sw update. What I can recall was before the update, when I drove a bit over 80 miles at a full charge, I would get battery low warning with about 18% charge left and this happened quite some times. this time I didn't even get this warning at 96.5 miles with 17% charge left. I still remember last night it gave battery low warning at 14% charge left.

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That would be normal. Realize with longer range that "17%" is more valuable than the degraded "18%" since those warnings are triggered by estimated remaining charge in the packs.

Its not until the 40 kwh pack came out that the warnings were redone. IOW; You will get the warning at the same time for both 24 and 30 kwh packs so the 30 kwh pack warning will come in at a lower SOC but the DTE (distance to empty) will be similar

I don't know what this signifies but the only times I ever got a LBW on my 2017 S was at 14%. This happened several times and it was always a surprise to me. I haven't driven to LBW since I had the update but the several times it happened before the update was always at 14%.

goldbrick said:

I don't know what this signifies but the only times I ever got a LBW on my 2017 S was at 14%. This happened several times and it was always a surprise to me. I haven't driven to LBW since I had the update but the several times it happened before the update was always at 14%.

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It signifies minimal degradation...

amissionleaf said:

Leaf battery degradation vary between packs and owners but for a specific pack the degradation would be kind of consistent. According to the graph of the degradation over months on this forum, I would guess the miles read when 4th bar is lost would be about 3.6x of the miles read when the first bar is lost. Being that said, if you lose your 1st bar at 30000 miles, most likely you will lose your 4th bar around 108000 miles if no changes in location, charging pattern and driving habit. then most likely you won't get a free battery replacement.

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If the first bar drops at 30K mi. that represents a 17% loss of capacity. He will drop the next bar at 77%, the third bar at about 70% and the fourth at 64%. So somewhere around 60k-65K mi. he will lose the fourth bar and be eligible for a new battery. The numbers may vary slightly but should be close to the mark. This assumes the driving habits and distances remain relatively constant. Battery degradation seems to remain consistent unless conditions change. YMMV.

Just lost my 1st capacity bar on my 2017 Leaf after 17094 miles and 1 year 10 months. (QC = 265, L2 = 451/timer)

At time of purchase AHr = 81.32. Now 66.52 so a little over 18% capacity loss. (First year at 9500 miles lost about 10.5% per AHr readings).

Note: this is before the Nissan SW update which I am planning to do at the time of my 2nd Annual Battery Check in Dec (2018) or Jan (2019).

lkkms2 said:

Note: this is before the Nissan SW update which I am planning to do at the time of my 2nd Annual Battery Check in Dec (2018) or Jan (2019).

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I've forgotten, does the software update also result in higher displayed Ahr ?

Yes.

johnlocke said:

amissionleaf said:

Leaf battery degradation vary between packs and owners but for a specific pack the degradation would be kind of consistent. According to the graph of the degradation over months on this forum, I would guess the miles read when 4th bar is lost would be about 3.6x of the miles read when the first bar is lost. Being that said, if you lose your 1st bar at 30000 miles, most likely you will lose your 4th bar around 108000 miles if no changes in location, charging pattern and driving habit. then most likely you won't get a free battery replacement.

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If the first bar drops at 30K mi. that represents a 17% loss of capacity. He will drop the next bar at 77%, the third bar at about 70% and the fourth at 64%. So somewhere around 60k-65K mi. he will lose the fourth bar and be eligible for a new battery. The numbers may vary slightly but should be close to the mark. This assumes the driving habits and distances remain relatively constant. Battery degradation seems to remain consistent unless conditions change. YMMV.

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Do you still remember when did your first bar drop and at what mileage?

amissionleaf said:

just to report that my '17 leaf got a firmware update today. I don't have any leafspy data but I feel the update added about 15 - 20 miles to the remaining range reading. the longest range I saw in last summer was about 125 miles with a full charge. Today the range is around 105 with a full charge before the update, and showing 102 remaining + 22 driven right after update. The car was built 11/2016 and I got it in march 2017, now has 20250 miles on it.

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I got a BAFX bt obd2 scanner today (I should have had it prior to the sw update) and got my first battery stats using the leafspy lite from andriod play store. The data is:

AHr=72.72
SOH=91.50%
Hx=76.22%
4 QC and 820 L1/L2

I have never done the QC, so that must be done by dealer before I had it. is this pack in healthy state? according to the formula from this site: https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-nissan-leaf-firmware-update-to-correct-capacity-reporting/
SOH_post = 57 + 0.43 x SOH_pre, my SOH prior to the update would be only around 80% and should have lost 1 bar already. the calculated AHr_new = 72.72/.915 = 79.5 was quite bit small (should be around 82?)

Looks like my pack degrades at a rate of 4.32% per 10,000 miles, that leads to the edge of the warranty around 64% of SOH at 100,000 miles

Any comment?

lkkms2 said:

Just lost my 1st capacity bar on my 2017 Leaf after 17094 miles and 1 year 10 months. (QC = 265, L2 = 451/timer)

At time of purchase AHr = 81.32. Now 66.52 so a little over 18% capacity loss. (First year at 9500 miles lost about 10.5% per AHr readings).

Note: this is before the Nissan SW update which I am planning to do at the time of my 2nd Annual Battery Check in Dec (2018) or Jan (2019).

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According to the formula SOH_post = 57 + 0.43 * SOH_pre = 57 + 0.43 * (66.52/81.32 * 100) = 57 + 0.43 * 81.8 = 92.17
so at your second annual battery check time, your SOH_pre would be around 80% , and your SOH_post around 91.5%

remember to post the data here after you have your 2nd Annual Battery Check

Checking in. My rough timeline (I didn't track this very thoroughly):

Sep-2017 - 79% SOH, one bar lost
Dec-2017 - 72% SOH, still at one bar loss
...
Didn't track / post, but lost bars two and three in this period
...
Sep-2018 - 63% SOH, still at three bar loss
Oct-2018 - 59% SOH, still at three bar loss

For the record I haven't done the battery firmware update yet. I kind of wanted to drop the fourth bar first just to document it.

Conventional wisdom around here has seemed to indicate loss of the fourth bar around 64% SOH but I'm now well below that. Anybody have any thoughts on what other metrics drive the bar losses? I'm assuming there is some kind of time / distance requirement on top of the direct measurements the battery is providing. Feels like I should have dropped that next bar already. My real world range from 100% down to several miles below VLB is now somewhere in the 70-80 mile range. This isn't going to cut it during the winter for my 67 mile round trip commute.







Hmm... images don't seem to be working. Shared folder should be here though: https://photos.app.goo.gl/hJ8RPakgdu2X5Q138

For the record I haven't done the battery firmware update yet. I kind of wanted to drop the fourth bar first just to document it.

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hmmm....

Conventional wisdom around here has seemed to indicate loss of the fourth bar around 64% SOH but I'm now well below that.

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Since you have not done the update, how do you know you are well below "anything?"

DaveinOlyWA said:

hmmm.... Since you have not done the update, how do you know you are well below "anything?"

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Obviously I'm comparing to the original state of the car as delivered by Nissan and the condition it was operated under until a few months ago when conditions were changed. A before and after view of a four bar loser seemed like useful information to gather to me. If you don't have anything productive to add please just don't respond.

I just got the firmware update, and my SoH went from 85.78% to 93.75%. I have a 2016 SL with 4400 miles, which I bought essentially new about 8 months ago.