LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:29 pm

We are in southern BC where although it can get quite hot in summer (July and August) it is otherwise a fairly mild climate.


How warm does it stay at night when the days are hot?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12879
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:00 am

dwl wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:TBH; I don't give a rats ass whether you chose to follow my advice or not but NOTHING will stop me from saying it.

My hero !

Stand on a crate in Hyde park and scream at the trees for all I care. Just do not offer your opinion as if it is fact or widely accepted.

What seems to be widely accepted is high SoC AND high temperatures AND time cause degradation. If SoC is kept lower then more chance of better battery life. Those in a cool climate don't need to worry so much but we now have a really bad situation here in New Zealand where many of the imports, now including some from the UK which have been driven harder, are dropping a bar for 2016 cars and there is zero support currently from Nissan - no warranty, not even ability to buy replacement packs.

I concur it is good advice to maintain lower SoC if you don't need the range. When it comes to facts, if only Nissan would give some reasons why these cars aren't holding up in some areas it would avoid the need for people to give their best guess as to what is happening.


What is not apparently accepted is the 3 are not on equal footing. High SOC is by far the worst and the one to be most avoided. Conveniently, its also the one parameter we can control. No, we don't have ANY help in that regard.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
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webeleafowners
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Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:19 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
We are in southern BC where although it can get quite hot in summer (July and August) it is otherwise a fairly mild climate.


How warm does it stay at night when the days are hot?


Good morning Leftie. I would say mid teens by morning for July and August. Maybe 5 bars sometimes 6 on the battery. Daily summer driving, especially longer trips will see 7 bars. I think I may have seen 8 once on a smoky hot trip to Revelstoke in Fire season. Three fast charges that day but shorter duration. Maybe 15 min each. That trip the range was shorter. Faster highway, air conditioning etc. The air inside the car was good but the air outside was horrible.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

lorenfb
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Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:44 am

Use data from here to make predictions about factors contributing to degradation and their effects over time, e.g. near term:

Image

This has been discussed before with some agreement on a conclusion, i.e. the effect of 100% SOC.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 64K miles, 49 Ahrs, 5.1 miles/kWh (average), L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F, min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

johnlocke
Posts: 216
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Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:36 pm

lorenfb wrote:Use data from here to make predictions about factors contributing to degradation and their effects over time, e.g. near term:

Image

This has been discussed before with some agreement on a conclusion, i.e. the effect of 100% SOC.

It's a lovely chart but has little bearing on Leaf batteries. That chart shows that the batteries last for 5000 cycles or more. Leaf batteries crap out at less than 1000 cycles. It may make some difference to have a shallower discharge cycle but Leaf batteries are poorly designed and fail mostly due to heat problems. Leafs in cooler climates last longer than Leafs in hot climates. Putting a bandaid on a broken arm doesn't fix the problem.

If you can produce a chart like that specifically for Leaf batteries, I'd be happy to look at it.
2016 SV
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lorenfb
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:16 am

johnlocke wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Use data from here to make predictions about factors contributing to degradation and their effects over time, e.g. near term:

Image

This has been discussed before with some agreement on a conclusion, i.e. the effect of 100% SOC.

It's a lovely chart but has little bearing on Leaf batteries. That chart shows that the batteries last for 5000 cycles or more. Leaf batteries crap out at less than 1000 cycles. It may make some difference to have a shallower discharge cycle but Leaf batteries are poorly designed and fail mostly due to heat problems. Leafs in cooler climates last longer than Leafs in hot climates. Putting a bandaid on a broken arm doesn't fix the problem.

If you can produce a chart like that specifically for Leaf batteries, I'd be happy to look at it.


It was the basis for some in the past to conclude that charging to 100% was the key factor for degradation.
Others concluded that for realistic battery life, charging to 100% was less critical than other factors, e.g. heat.
Take your pick. Surely you remember that discussion, right? It seemed as if the forum was back on that again,
so the graphic for the previous conclusions has been posted. You can do the search to find that thread.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 64K miles, 49 Ahrs, 5.1 miles/kWh (average), L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F, min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

irwinr
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:20 am
Delivery Date: 26 Mar 2015

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:08 pm

Our 2016 LEAF w/30kWh battery has now lost 3 bars after only 21k miles and less than 2 years of ownership (Brand new lease).

Since we knew the 2016 model did away with the 80% charge limit feature we purchased a fancy Wifi controlled JuiceBox and I have it controlled by a custom program I wrote which: When the car is plugged in it automatically queries the NissanConnect EV web services to find out the current battery charge level and then schedules the JuiceBox to charge overnight and limits it to only adding the required amount of kWh to the battery to bring it to 60% SOC before shutting off the charger.

That's right: We only ever charge to 60% overnight.

My same program has a website front end that we can use to schedule the car to charge to higher states of charge when needed for longer trips. So if we know we need to leave at 9am for an extended distance trip we can schedule it to charge to whatever percentage we need (Say 90%) by 9am and it does the math to figure out exactly when it needs to start charging to have the car hit 90% right at 9am. So the car is always driven immediately after charging and never sits at high states of charge. We do occasionally do a full 100% charge (Including time needed to top balance) maybe once or twice a month to keep the pack top balanced.

It would be virtually impossible for anyone to baby their battery more than we've babied this thing.

So for those arguing SOC is the most important factor: This car never sits at states of charger greater than 60% for more than maybe an hour or two (Time needed to charge to above 60% for longer trips) before being driven. And yet we've lost 30% of our battery capacity in less than 2 years and after only 21k miles. We also very very rarely use QC.

We live in Austin, TX and the car stays in a garage except when it's being driven.

So you might want to blame the hot Texas weather but.... We previously had a 2013 LEAF with the 24kWh battery and it had only lost a single capacity bar after nearly 40k miles before we sold it. That car had to endure the same warm climate and it's battery was fine. The difference in degradation between the 24 and 30 kWh batteries is staggering. Our 2013 LEAF was always charged to 80% (Using the cars 80% limit feature, which the 2016 does not have) and sat at 80% for extended periods of time since we didn't have the Wifi controlled JuiceBox at the time.

So the 2016 is degrading 3-4 times faster even though it's sitting at a lower SOC than the 2013 model. So that really rules out SOC as the primary factor. Both the 2013 and 2016 cars were in the same climate so that would suggest the heat shouldn't have been that much of a factor either.

To add insult to injury the 2016 is far less energy efficient. We can barely achieve 3.1 miles/kWh at highway speeds (70 mph) vs around 3.6 for the 2013. So our new 2016/30 kWh LEAF currently has a lower usable range than our 2013/24 kWh model did when we sold it.

LeftieBiker
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Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:52 pm

That really does suck. I think you'll find, though, that few people argue that SOC is the primary factor in degradation. A 100% SOC, combined with high ambient temps is often mentioned, but the SOC is still secondary.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

joeriv
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Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:05 pm

Have you noticed if the 2016 runs hotter (ie more temp bars) compared to the 2013?
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:16 pm

joeriv wrote:Have you noticed if the 2016 runs hotter (ie more temp bars) compared to the 2013?


Yes. The main theory now is that the 30kwh and 40kwh packs stay hotter because of higher energy density and even less passive cooling.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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