2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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IssacZachary said:
willbur4 said:
It appears these batteries do well in this climate if owners manual precautions (they are a pain) are heeded.
What owner's manual precautions are you referring to, if I may ask?

From leaf owners manual:

Allow battery to cool before charging (Use of charging timer is helpful here. If I need to charge a warm battery I do it but this is unusual for us)

Park in shade (If shady spot is available. If you have to park in the sun daily while at work, this could be a problem for the battery. If SOC is mid-range or lower, then heat is less of a concern)

Avoid sustained high battery temps


Minimize use of QC

Avoid sustained high SOC (If you need to charge to 100%, do it. But drive off when charge is complete)

Allow battery to be < 80% before charging (I have topped off many times if range is needed, the key is to drive off when charge is complete)
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
willbur4 said:
I decided to Check my 30Kw 2016 Leaf battery after seeing reports of accelerated degradation. I Was pleased to find 99.97% SOH (LeafSpy) after two years and 24,442 miles of use in northern Ohio. We L2 Charge daily to ~ 90% then drive off within 1/2 hour. It appears these batteries do well in this climate if owners manual precautions (they are a pain) are heeded. Battery data from 4/19/2018:

SOH = 99.97 %
Temp = 62.8 F
347 volts
AHR = 79.46
1 QC 791L1/L2 Charges
24,442 miles
HX = 92.51%
SOC = 28.7%
84 GID
4mi/KwH

Your avoiding 100% SOC has paid off!

Your SOH is good but Hx, not so much. Wouldn't lose sleep over that. The pitfall of no top end balancing. To determine how important top end balancing you need to weigh longevity over range. If you don't need a few extra miles of range, just keep doing what you are doing.

Ahr is 96.5%. Its all conjecture here but I consider this the most important metric. I would also take more readings of your pack as this single snapshot could be a bit misleading. The numbers bounce around (if you don't have a 2018) all the time so more samples just rounds out the view a bit.

Thanks for the tips. Any idea why SOH and Ahr would diverge by 3 percent?
 
willbur4 said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
willbur4 said:
I decided to Check my 30Kw 2016 Leaf battery after seeing reports of accelerated degradation. I Was pleased to find 99.97% SOH (LeafSpy) after two years and 24,442 miles of use in northern Ohio. We L2 Charge daily to ~ 90% then drive off within 1/2 hour. It appears these batteries do well in this climate if owners manual precautions (they are a pain) are heeded. Battery data from 4/19/2018:

SOH = 99.97 %
Temp = 62.8 F
347 volts
AHR = 79.46
1 QC 791L1/L2 Charges
24,442 miles
HX = 92.51%
SOC = 28.7%
84 GID
4mi/KwH

Your avoiding 100% SOC has paid off!

Your SOH is good but Hx, not so much. Wouldn't lose sleep over that. The pitfall of no top end balancing. To determine how important top end balancing you need to weigh longevity over range. If you don't need a few extra miles of range, just keep doing what you are doing.

Ahr is 96.5%. Its all conjecture here but I consider this the most important metric. I would also take more readings of your pack as this single snapshot could be a bit misleading. The numbers bounce around (if you don't have a 2018) all the time so more samples just rounds out the view a bit.

Thanks for the tips. Any idea why SOH and Ahr would diverge by 3 percent?

Who knows? Part of it is simply a one off reading. You need a BUNDLE of readings. Simply could be a temp diversion but how can you tell?
 
willbur4 said:
From leaf owners manual:

Allow battery to cool before charging (Use of charging timer is helpful here. If I need to charge a warm battery I do it but this is unusual for us)

Park in shade (If shady spot is available. If you have to park in the sun daily while at work, this could be a problem for the battery. If SOC is mid-range or lower, then heat is less of a concern)

Avoid sustained high battery temps


Minimize use of QC

Avoid sustained high SOC (If you need to charge to 100%, do it. But drive off when charge is complete)

Allow battery to be < 80% before charging (I have topped off many times if range is needed, the key is to drive off when charge is complete)
Thanks! I guess that means I would be in an area that would work well with a 30kWh Leaf since the climate is mostly cool or cold (it's snowing now!)

I also set my charging timer for the morning. I do it because I think it might help warm the battery up in the cool of the morning. I'm not so sure it helps.
 
IssacZachary said:
willbur4 said:
From leaf owners manual:

Allow battery to cool before charging (Use of charging timer is helpful here. If I need to charge a warm battery I do it but this is unusual for us)

Park in shade (If shady spot is available. If you have to park in the sun daily while at work, this could be a problem for the battery. If SOC is mid-range or lower, then heat is less of a concern)

Avoid sustained high battery temps


Minimize use of QC

Avoid sustained high SOC (If you need to charge to 100%, do it. But drive off when charge is complete)

Allow battery to be < 80% before charging (I have topped off many times if range is needed, the key is to drive off when charge is complete)
Thanks! I guess that means I would be in an area that would work well with a 30kWh Leaf since the climate is mostly cool or cold (it's snowing now!)

I also set my charging timer for the morning. I do it because I think it might help warm the battery up in the cool of the morning. I'm not so sure it helps.


Look for a Leaf SV or SL (heat pump models) from a moderate or cool region, leaf spy the battery before purchase, and you will be good.
 
willbur4 said:
Look for a Leaf SV or SL (heat pump models) from a moderate or cool region, leaf spy the battery before purchase, and you will be good.
Either that or I was thinking of bidding on a wrecked Leaf and swapping the battery out with my 2013. This has been done before but requires changin out a module under the dash.
 
IssacZachary said:
willbur4 said:
From leaf owners manual:

Allow battery to cool before charging (Use of charging timer is helpful here. If I need to charge a warm battery I do it but this is unusual for us)

Park in shade (If shady spot is available. If you have to park in the sun daily while at work, this could be a problem for the battery. If SOC is mid-range or lower, then heat is less of a concern)

Avoid sustained high battery temps


Minimize use of QC

Avoid sustained high SOC (If you need to charge to 100%, do it. But drive off when charge is complete)

Allow battery to be < 80% before charging (I have topped off many times if range is needed, the key is to drive off when charge is complete)
Thanks! I guess that means I would be in an area that would work well with a 30kWh Leaf since the climate is mostly cool or cold (it's snowing now!)

I also set my charging timer for the morning. I do it because I think it might help warm the battery up in the cool of the morning. I'm not so sure it helps.

As long as you realize the #1 concern is high SOC. Sure it matters if pack is cold or hot but high SOC is THE primary killer. If you don't need the range, don't charge to 100%.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
As long as you realize the #1 concern is high SOC.
In your opinion. Which Nissan obviously does not share.

Heaven forbid I should go against someone which such an awesome track record!
Feel free, just make it clear what is your personal opinion rather than fact or widely accepted.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
In your opinion. Which Nissan obviously does not share.
Heaven forbid I should go against someone which such an awesome track record!
Feel free, just make it clear what is your personal opinion rather than fact or widely accepted.
And Nissan is reported above to also say "Avoid sustained high SOC" which suggests charging to and leaving at 100% is not recommended by the manufacturer.
 
Well, I do use the 80% charge feature on my 2013 quite a bit. I figure it can't hurt to use it as long as I don't run out of charge somewhere because of it. I also charge in the mornings so that it doesn't sit at a high state of charge for long periods. So far, the days I charge to 80% I still have 40%-50% left on the battery when I get home. When I need it I charge to 100%. The only problem is that on days I need to charge to 100% it would be nice if I could charge it closer to 120%. On those days I need the range I usually get home with around 10% on the battery, and that's with driving as carefully and planned out as possible. Hence my interest in a 30kWh or 40kWh Leaf.

One thing I've noticed is that if I'm using the 80% feature during several days it does seem to take longer to finish up balancing the battery the next couple of times I charge to 100%.

If I put a 30kWh battery in my 2013 I wonder if swapping out the correct module to get the battery to work would disable the 80% feature.

Anyhow, I think I'm derailing the thread so I'll just be quite for now.
 
dwl said:
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Heaven forbid I should go against someone which such an awesome track record!
Feel free, just make it clear what is your personal opinion rather than fact or widely accepted.
And Nissan is reported above to also say "Avoid sustained high SOC" which suggests charging to and leaving at 100% is not recommended by the manufacturer.
Correct, but Nissan does not provide a temperature context;
Does not think it is a big enough issue to give consumers a choice;
And most importantly, gives no indication that SoC is the #1 issue as Dave opines.
 
IssacZachary said:
Well, I do use the 80% charge feature on my 2013 quite a bit. I figure it can't hurt to use it as long as I don't run out of charge somewhere because of it. I also charge in the mornings so that it doesn't sit at a high state of charge for long periods. So far, the days I charge to 80% I still have 40%-50% left on the battery when I get home. When I need it I charge to 100%..
I do the same.

I don't doubt that SoC and battery temperature are leading variables; or that sustained high SoC (> 90%) at high temperatures in particular is best avoided if possible. My objection in Dave's posts is stating opinion based on his anecdotal experience as if it is gospel for the every LEAF in the world when contradictory examples abound.
 
SageBrush said:
I don't doubt that SoC and battery temperature are leading variables; or that sustained high SoC (> 90%) at high temperatures in particular is best avoided if possible. My objection in Dave's posts is stating opinion based on his anecdotal experience as if it is gospel for the every LEAF in the world when contradictory examples abound.

Agreed!
 
DaveinOlyWa said:
As long as you realize the #1 concern is high SOC. Sure it matters if pack is cold or hot but high SOC is THE primary killer.

IssacZachary said:
it would be nice if I could charge it closer to 120%.

SageBrush said:
My objection in Dave's posts is stating opinion based on his anecdotal experience.

Well at least you got to hand it to Dave that if I found a way to charge my battery to 120% he might be right.
 
dwl said:
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Heaven forbid I should go against someone which such an awesome track record!
Feel free, just make it clear what is your personal opinion rather than fact or widely accepted.
And Nissan is reported above to also say "Avoid sustained high SOC" which suggests charging to and leaving at 100% is not recommended by the manufacturer.

Which is the problem.

What it suggests to me is don't charge to a higher SOC than you actually need. What it also does not mention directly is the rate of degradation is much higher beginning at moderately warm temperatures. But if you look at curves related to degradation and temp, you have to be in a cooler to make a difference.

All I did was put together a few data sets to come to my "personal belief"

TBH; I don't give a rats ass whether you chose to follow my advice or not but NOTHING will stop me from saying it.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
TBH; I don't give a rats ass whether you chose to follow my advice or not but NOTHING will stop me from saying it.
My hero !

Stand on a crate in Hyde park and scream at the trees for all I care. Just do not offer your opinion as if it is fact or widely accepted.
 
It has been interesting following this thread and seeing the various results of people from various areas. We are in southern BC where although it can get quite hot in summer (July and August) it is otherwise a fairly mild climate. Our leaf is a couple years old (2016 SV) and seems to be doing alright. With 12 to 14 degree temps a full charge indicates about 190 km now, down a bit from the 200 ish from when we bought it for the same time of year. Our driving habits and location seem to be of the type that the GOM is actually pretty accurate. Speed limits mostly 100 km/h or slower, 60/40 city/highway split. Not a lot of HVAC use (until July). We don’t have Leaf spy but we pretty much get what the GOM says we will. I haven’t looked at the display lately but the last time I looked we seem to be settled into 6.4 km for the spring. That will go up a bit and then drop when summer temps hit and the AC gets used. We seem to be in one of those areas that agree with the Leaf. We charge to 100 percent when we have to but usually keep it 80 or under. Fast charge when we have to, maybe 6 or 10 times per year. Overall happy with the car. Planning on upgrading in 2021.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
TBH; I don't give a rats ass whether you chose to follow my advice or not but NOTHING will stop me from saying it.
My hero !

Stand on a crate in Hyde park and scream at the trees for all I care. Just do not offer your opinion as if it is fact or widely accepted.
What seems to be widely accepted is high SoC AND high temperatures AND time cause degradation. If SoC is kept lower then more chance of better battery life. Those in a cool climate don't need to worry so much but we now have a really bad situation here in New Zealand where many of the imports, now including some from the UK which have been driven harder, are dropping a bar for 2016 cars and there is zero support currently from Nissan - no warranty, not even ability to buy replacement packs.

I concur it is good advice to maintain lower SoC if you don't need the range. When it comes to facts, if only Nissan would give some reasons why these cars aren't holding up in some areas it would avoid the need for people to give their best guess as to what is happening.
 
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