Battery warranty

I looked up everywhere, asked at the dealership, and... so far haven't got any definitive answer about what battery warranty actually means...
So far the only definitive answer I got was that if in 8 years the battery will die completely, it will be replaced under the warranty, but what if it is at 20% right before 8 years? using common sense it should be replaced as well, but so far I can't find any legal binding to that... the only terms I found was "expected remaining capacity" "under normal use" and remaining capacity may vary depending on usage...
Have anyone gave any thought or got any information that actually tells when the battery SHOULD be replaced under warranty and when it should not? Something like "If after 5 years remaining capacity is below 70% battery will be repaired under warranty to restore capacity to at least 90%"?

From what I have read/heard so far, even if you have 10% remaining capacity after 5 years, but you lost it gradually, Nissan theoretically can legally argue that it is because your usage pattern and it should not be repaired under battery warranty.

Battery lifespan: The Achilles's heel of the EV or a tempest in a teapot? We'll find out in eight years, and Nissan will too. For now you have to have some faith in Nissan's concern for their brand and reputation that you won't get hurt too badly in the deal.

Read your Warranty.

NO battery CAPACITY warranty!

However, it SEEMS like ... IF the battery loses the ability to produce "enough" POWER (for a short, unspecified time?), then it might be a warranty event.

Basically, expect a capacity decline, and ... we do not know.

My point is how can this thing be called a warranty, if it really warrants nothing???
I thought Nissan tested the battery for years and this kind of battery technology was in use in other sectors for over a decade, so with all this and bright minds of Nissan R&D you should be able to come up with some "bottom line" that should be saying that something is abnormally wrong. I would be fine with even 20% capacity after 8 years, SPELLED out in warranty, which would mean that you have to replace the battery on your own money at that point...
I feel that the numbers ARE known (something like 99% of the batteries would be over some X% of initial capacity at the end of 8 years period) but they could be low enough for marketing department or someone who does not want to show it anywhere as lowest numbers can be really low, as opposed to "expected" numbers from "average" "normal use".
But I think by not spelling out those low numbers they are making this warranty basically totally unusable... which almost equals to no warranty (with an exception of the total failure case), and in my point of view cannot be even called warranty...

I really really like Leaf, and I would even buy it with no warranty on battery, BUT I really like to make the rules straight and I hate when people or companies try cheat their way out by using a game of words...

I would REALLY love Nissan if they can state something like this: "Hey, we don't guarantee battery capacity, but if capacity reduces by more than X% a year under normal operating conditions (no overheating/freezing) we will make a warranty repair or replacement"
I'm fine with 20%, or 30%, whatever, just spell it out! I don't like the "might be a warranty event" in a warranty, as this "might" will definitely be interpreted by dealers as "no warranty event"

The battery, like the rest of the car, is warranted against defects in materials and workmanship. If your battery fails because it was constructed improperly or because the materials were defective, Nissan will replace it.

Nissan makes no guarantees concerning how long the battery will last. They've done extensive R&D because if the batteries fail in large numbers, Nissan will lose the market share its early entry into the market will likely give it. And if two or three batteries fail early, they may be nice and replace them, judging that the cost is worth the good publicity of standing behind the product.

But the bottom line is that as an early adopter of an infant technology, you pays your money and you takes your chances. The warranty covers defects, not longevity. If you cannot accept that risk, you should wait until the technology has a track record.

UkrainianKozak said:

..."might" will definitely be interpreted by dealers as "no warranty event"

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Actually dealers would love to call it a warranty event. They get paid for those. It's Nissan corporate that will be inclined to be stingy. This is a place where the forum will be a big help. Some of the people who get warranty replacements will report that here, so that folks will know not to accept a lesser standard in the case of their car. Also, we'll know how well the batteries are holding up in general, so that if everyone is getting 85% after 8 years, but I'm only getting 65%, I'll know to scream it to the rooftops.

The fact is that Nissan just doesn't really know what the performance is going to be, and won't commit to a standard that has them replacing a serious percentage of the packs out there for what turns out to be "normal" degradation.

If a cell dies it will be replaced.. the capacity of the battery as a whole is not covered, but failure of specific cells is clearly covered. That is a warranty worth having as this kind of failure would be more catastrophic in that it would serious affect functioning. As far as capacity, the car only makes sense (to buy) if 60% of the original range is sufficient for intended use. If that doesn't work out a lease makes more sense, or a different vehicle

For example, right now I commute a total of 25 miles a day and recharge to 80% every-other-day. If in 5 years if I have a 50 mile range left I will still be satisfied with the Leaf. If in 10 I can commute the same distance and charge to 100% every day I will considfer the car a great success. At one of the meets I met a guy intending to commute 80 miles a day. I don't think the Leaf makes sense for him.

By the way, for those who have not purchased yet: Nissan makes you sign a four page disclosure clearly acknowledging the limitations of electric cars and the lack of capacity warranty.

Yes, I would say that a careful reading of that four page disclosure is a must. On battery capacity it says:

Like all lithium ion batteries, the 2011 LEAF battery will experience a reduction in the amount of electricity or charge it can hold over time, resulting in a reduction of the vehicle's range. This is normal and expected. The rate of reduction cannot be assured, however, the battery is expected to maintain approximately 80% of its initial capacity after 5 years of normal operation and recommended care, but this is not guaranteed. This number may be higher or lower depending upon usage and care. Factors that will affect and may hasten the rate of capacity loss include, but are not limited to: exposure to very high ambient temperatures for extended periods of time, driving habits, vehicle usage, and charging habits (Quick Charging the vehicle more than once per day).

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Let's face it, they really can't give you a guarantee, because the lifetime depends much more on you than on them. Have you ever seen an auto manufacturer give you a guarantee on miles/gallon you will achieve in their vehicle?

Ray

planet4ever said:

Let's face it, they really can't give you a guarantee, because the lifetime depends much more on you than on them.

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It really depends on the user, usually this chemistry will achieve 1500 cycles under severe abuse.. let define that: nearly 100% cycling and fast recharges multiple times a day... in summertime Phoenix.

Lets say you have a 60 mile commute, and you drive the car at 75mph with the AC on and so forth, the battery is almost empty when you get to work, you charge it fully at work with an L2 EVSE and again deplete the battery by the time you get home.. you can probably do that about 750 times and then the battery would be shot.. it would take 45k miles and less than 3 years. It may be worse than this if the battery can only take 1000 abusive cycles. It definitely will get worse if you start using L3 charging.

batteries have token warranties at best. a few are good for full replacement after one year, after that its prorated and the amount drops FAST.

but EV car batteries are considered defective when range is actually still relatively high. i dont have the exact figure and guessing we can only speculate but would assume the batteries to be dead when they have lost 30-40% of range?

now should this happen, will you get a new pack? nah... the range degradation would most likely be a few bad cells swapped out. i really dont see Nissan pushing too hard on this. the initial response to the product is key and a few modules here and there should be nothing after the TN battery plant is up and running

SteveInSeattle said:

By the way, for those who have not purchased yet: Nissan makes you sign a four page disclosure clearly acknowledging the limitations of electric cars and the lack of capacity warranty.

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Could you or anyone post this 4 page disclosure?

This isn't the whole thing, but covers a lot of the same information....

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1652

I do think folks should get into this with their eyes open. On one hand there are so many factors like driving style, climate, road conditions, annual miles, depth of charge/discharge ets and it's understandably problematic for a manufacturer to make promises when it really needs to consider things on a case by case basis depending on what it finds to be typical of "normal" use before giving away the farm to the masses. On the other hand, we all want some kind of reassurance that we are not about to get screwed by an overall design deficiency or simply from a bad batch of cells.

I think Nissan has attempted to make it abundantly clear that we should make efforts to conserve cycle life if possible and that we should expect to see decline. I expect that gradual decline across the board with the battery will not be covered but any cell that performs substantially below par will get replaced under warranty.

I have a friend with an early Toyota Camry hybrid who purchased it used, after warranty expired and within a few months of buying it a few cells went bad in the hybrid battery making the entire battery useless. Since the battery was not compartmentalized, there is no way to easily replace the cells... dealer wants $7K to replace the battery. She has had to settle for driving it the way it is for now. After hearing this story, I did some research and found some interesting things out about the third party market that has cropped up around refurbishing hybrid batteries. I also discovered that the new hybrids are coming out with compartmentalized cells so you don't have to replace the entire battery but rather the offending cells, more easily and cheaply.

Nissan has apparently learned from the predecessors, their very first mass produced battery is compartmentalized. As I understand it, what typically drags down efficiency of the battery is a bad cell or two or three... even if you end up having to pay for them out of pocket, it's not likely going to be hellishly expensive, like purchasing the entire pack.

We are all guinea pigs to some extent here, I'm doing my best to take a calculated risk, go somewhat easy on the batteries and enjoy helping to spearhead the EV revolution. It is with great pride that I am diverting nearly all the funds I've been forking over to big oil to fuel renewable energy development through the 100% green up program with my utility, a dream come true! It's hard to believe that with the Leaf and current renewable options for electricity production that I can now drive truly emission free and for the equivalent of 70 cent a gallon gas!!!! So many thought that this was simply impossible and yet it's happening right here, right now, in our life times!

I just spent considerable hours noodling over the issue of battery warranty and battery care as I try and nail down some standards of care and use for the batteries for myself. If you want one person's honest opinion you can read my looong post, most of the way down the page, here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2265&start=150

Of course, my thinking on all of this is a work in progress and likely will be for years to come.

regards,
g

Its simple, all batteries (for now) are wear items.. no one will warrant that, just like tires and windshield wipers.. but you still get a replacement if it has a factory defect... Nissan goes a step above by offering a free performance warranty (how fast it will accelerate, for a limited time), but still no capacity warranty ever.

Why are batteries wear items?.. we can cover that in another post after I had some coffee

In addition to what GasslessInSeattle and Herm point out above, people need to understand that this is a new technology. The EVs of the 90's used NiMH batteries (or lead, in the case of the early EV1s) and were hand-made cars. This is a pioneering product and should not be purchased by anyone unwilling to take a risk. The potential benefit is getting to drive electric 5 or 10 years before the technology becomes mature. The potential risk is being left with a car that in 5 or 10 years has lost much more of its value than would a conventional car.

The lack of a battery warranty (other than defects in construction) is part of this. When the first white settlers set out across the mountains and prairies looking for a new life, there were no warranties.

I have shouted loud and angrily against Nissan for its broken promises: They promised us cars in December and January and then changed their minds. They offered no explanations for the broken promise. We called customer service and were lied to on a daily basis.

But with regard to the battery life, they are making no promises, and in fact they are telling us that they do not know how fast battery capacity will deteriorate. Rather than complaining about the 4-page battery disclosure, I say it's the first GOOD thing they are doing: At least this once they are telling us the truth: If you buy this car there is a risk because at this stage of the technology, it is not known how fast the range will deteriorate. Nissan is telling us: Do not buy this car if you are unable to take this risk.

I'd go further: If you are borrowing money to buy the car, and/or if a rapid deterioration in range would create a serious financial hardship for you, then do not buy it. Get a Prius and wait for EV technology to mature. I'm willing to take the risk, but if I lose the full purchase price of the car it will not cause me to lose my home or miss a meal. I think the batteries will last longer than some fear, but a 50-mile car still will serve most of my driving needs other than extended road trips, and I have the stinker for those.

There are risks involved in buying the FIRST affordable mass-produced family EV since the early part of the 20th century. Be aware of them and make no assumptions about the batteries in this car. Buy it only if you can afford to lose your investment. It's possible that in 10 years the car will only have lost 10 miles of its range. It's also possible that in 5 years it will have half its original range.

daniel said:

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Nissan is telling us: Do not buy this car if you are unable to take this risk.

I'd go further: If you are borrowing money to buy the car, and/or if a rapid deterioration in range would create a serious financial hardship for you, then do not buy it. Get a Prius and wait for EV technology to mature. I'm willing to take the risk, but if I lose the full purchase price of the car it will not cause me to lose my home or miss a meal. I think the batteries will last longer than some fear, but a 50-mile car still will serve most of my driving needs other than extended road trips, and I have the stinker for those.

There are risks involved in buying the FIRST affordable mass-produced family EV since the early part of the 20th century. Be aware of them and make no assumptions about the batteries in this car. Buy it only if you can afford to lose your investment. It's possible that in 10 years the car will only have lost 10 miles of its range. It's also possible that in 5 years it will have half its original range.

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Daniel, I think your post is quite sobering and well thought out. I think a healthy dose of caution is a good thing. That said, the vehicle and energy market over the next decade is likely to be extremely volatile no matter where you have your money. We are living in risky times, requiring speculative investing and staying on your toes. If we have passed Peak Oil, the depreciation of ICE cars could go off the edge of a cliff in the next five to ten years as the cost of gas spikes. Even the value of the current Prius could be headed for a sharp decline if EV's take off or if the plug-in hybrid market takes off. While I do acknowledge that I am taking risk, I feel pretty comfortable that between the $7,500 in rebates, the waived sales tax and the low cost of running the Leaf, that I will fair pretty well in the long run even with the inevitable decline in the battery. I also believe that the price per KW of battery capacity is headed for a sharp decline as mass production and new technology take off like never before. As the cost of gas spikes, the cost of battery capacity is likely to come down, perhaps a recipe for a volatile ICE market and a more stable EV market. I have a sneaking suspicion that we will be seeing a lot of these batteries upgraded before their usable life span just to take advantage of the added range that the new batteries will have.

bottom line, the value of being off of oil is Priceless!

g

This is kind of related to the battery warranty. Brendan Jones, VP of Sales at Nissan told me yesterday that there is no need to 80% charge or wait until 20% left like I was going to do. It will not degrade the batteries to 'top off' to 100% EVERY day even if you only use 40-50% of the SOC. As far as DC fast charging, it won't degrade the batteries unless you DC fast charge more than 6 times a day (as soon as DC chargers are put along the interstates...CA here I come!) He said they extensively tested these batteries in simulation up to 8 years of use. So now I'm resigning from the '80% club' and joining the 100% group even though I probably won't exceed 40 miles a day most of the time. He also said there probably wouldn't be a significant upgraded battery for at least four years, and very likely there will be an after market 6.6 charger within a year.

Great posts! However, I've never thought of a car as an investment or how it will hold value. My new, and only, car is 17 years old. I don't really care what the market thinks it is worth. It cost money to maintain and use, although alot more than my 15 year old bicycle. The automobile is a necessary tool, especially in most rural areas. If I lived in a Seattle, NYC, SF, etc., I could see not having a vehicle. I use my bicycle for commuting and most errands (yup, even the hardware store) but still fill up the ICE once a month, pay the insurance, and do maintenance just so it can sit in the garage. Yes, it's expensive insurance for those few trips or days I don't feel like riding, but hey, what the heck, it's my choice. If I were to calculate my "capacity factor/usage" it might approach 5%. :shock: Hmmm, and now I'm waiting for the Leaf, so my overall vehicle useage might decrease to 3%. I guess I'd better start driving more. :lol:

Reddy.....and waiting for my Nissan Leaf before the snow flies

I agree with Gasless and Reddy. I was speaking really to the people who feel Nissan should promise us a specific range after 5 or 10 years, and the people complaining about the 4-page battery disclosure (though I'm sure that could just as well have been a quarter of a page).

I'm also expecting the range I need and the corresponding wear and tear on the battery to decrease over the next few years as the public & private charging infrastructure fills out. This first battery in my Leaf may not last as long as the next one if the roll out continues at this painfully slow pace...