NEMA 14-50 outlet, 240v, Permit?

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Baltneu

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Messages
296
I had an excellent electrician install my outlet, breaker, wiring and 240v line. I am now wondering if I needed a permit? I think the answer is yes. So if the answer is yes, can I get a permit? Does the electrician have to get the permit? Does my work stand or does it have to be ripped out if a town inspector comes to inspect? I should have thought of this upfront. I assumed the electrician knew the details, but maybe not.
Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
 
Probably you are technically required to get a permit, but for small changes, like adding a 240 outlet, most people don't get one. Too much bother and the the down side is so low as to be irrelevant, generally.
 
It depends on where you live. I used to live in a rural area that did not require any permit for electrical work (even the new construction portion which checked at the final inspection) . Where I currently live as a homeowner I can get a permit on my own home, and perform the work, and no permit is needed if the materials are under $100 (which it should be depending on the run of wire). The permit for me was on $40 so I got mine inspected after a close friend who is a licensed electrician looked at what I did.
 
+1 on it all depends on your local requirements. You will get any needed permit from the local city or county so they set the rules on what is required. Most will simply adopt the NEC but they are free to do basically whatever they want.

On a more practical level, I've had finished work permitted and inspected after the fact and there was no issue. Just be polite and explain the situation and that you want to get a retro-active permit (if needed) and you should be fine. Especially since the work was done by a licensed electrician I would expect any inspection to go very smoothly.
 
Yes, you need a permit in most locations. Usually, the homeowner can get the permit if they do their own work, but if a professional electrician does the work, THEY need to pull the permit. Your local rules may vary, sometimes by a lot. Some places don't require a permit, as noted above, on the other end of the spectrum, others don't allow homeowners to do their own work.
 
You are crazy if you had an electrician install work and now you want to go digging up laws and regulations...

Keep your mouth shut and enjoy your car...
 
powersurge said:
You are crazy if you had an electrician install work and now you want to go digging up laws and regulations...

Keep your mouth shut and enjoy your car...

You might have a good point.....don't want to pay a late fine.
 
If it's your house and you ever sell it this is something that will legally need to be disclosed to the buyer. Getting a permit at that point will probably be more painful than doing it now. BTDT.

If the work was done correctly I doubt you will pay a late fee. It all depends on your individual county/city officials but if you go in and politely explain the situation I would guess you will find them happy to help. In fact, I would be more worried about getting the electrician in hot water rather than yourself.
 
If you had a reputable electrician do the installation they almost certainly know the local permitting requirements and would have pulled a permit and arranged inspection if needed. That being said, you can put your mind at ease by inquiring with your local jurisdiction about the requirements. They're not going to send the black helicopters just because you asked a question.
 
If you hired a licensed electrician, then it's their responsibility to obtain all needed permits. A homeowner shouldn't need to do detective work to verify with the city that her contractor pulled permits, any more than the homeowner needs to hire a second electrician to check whether the first electrician's work followed code.

(that is, yes, you could worry about it, and yes, there are bad apples, but if this becomes necessary, then the licensure system has failed).

Now, if you had other information to go on (like, your contractor had offered to save you money by not pulling permits), then that's a whole different racket. I once had a contractor installing a gas line to the stove, who said "code says the shutoff needs to be behind the stove, but you won't be able to reach that, so I put it in the basement where you can reach it". I made him add a second shutoff behind the stove... added a whopping $20.
 
I can affirm that in San Diego, when selling a home, there is a disclosure form that you have to sign and certify whether there is any unpermitted work that has been done (and you have to identify what the work was).

As a buyer, I certainly would want to know. It could be relatively benign (the previous homeowner swapped out a water heater), or it could be more complex and worth taking a look at (undersized wire, etc.)...
 
Depending on where you live, it could be important to get an inspection and certificate.

In Ontario, it is a requirement. However you may get away without an inspection... until something goes wrong.

I live in a (rented) townhouse community and decided that I would go through the inspection with ESA (Electrical Safety Authority).

I did do my work on my own, for me it was easy. I checked with the ESA inspector, confirmed what I thought was the right way.

Once the work was done, the inspector did his inspection, and now I have an approval sticker beside my 40A breaker on my breaker panel.

My cost $282.00 (CND) (had to run about 17 meters of 8 Gauge cable)
 
Randy said:
I can affirm that in San Diego, when selling a home, there is a disclosure form that you have to sign and certify whether there is any unpermitted work that has been done (and you have to identify what the work was).

As a buyer, I certainly would want to know. It could be relatively benign (the previous homeowner swapped out a water heater), or it could be more complex and worth taking a look at (undersized wire, etc.)...

I don't know if there is any such form to sign where I live. Even if there was, I just pull out the receipt from the Electrician.
Most people have an "Inspection" done. This is done by a third party. I have had this done but do not remember any kind of question about non-permitted work. People in my area get new HVAC systems and new Water Heaters, but don't get a permit for that work and sell their homes with no problem in that area.

Edit: I just looked at the sale agreement I signed 12 years ago for our home, and in the addendum is a clause about having work done with a proper permit. It is so buried in the paperwork, I have never heard of anyone asking or discussing this information, not that it should not be disclosed.

As I said above when Home Depot replaced my Hot Water heater, no permit was pulled. If you call Home Depot before noon, they will install the same day! No permit when my HVAC system was totally replaced (compressor, condenser, furnace, blower, etc). If a permit was needed to be shown to a prospective buyer, nothing around here would sell.

A top notch, Electrician did a clean and beautiful job, used all the materials I asked. I will just leave it there and not stir the pot.
 
to Coach81 and other forum members. I have done a complete 180 on this and decided to go for the permit. The cost of the permit, inspection, the whole thing is $450. It is not a gigantic number given on what I am saving with the car, etc.

Let me tell you why.........

1. I spoke to my town, without giving my name and address and they obviously confirmed I needed a permit. I think I knew this in advance, wanted the 100% confirmation.

2. When I go to resell the house, a home inspector, the prospective buyer, or someone from the town could ask to see the permit. That could nix or delay the sale. Since the outlet is right next to the panel in the garage I could always have the electrician rip the whole things out, and no more 240v line. But when I sell the unit, there is an addendum on the sale agreement that I permitted everything that I should. So what if it never comes up during a sale, but somewhere down the road the new homeowner uses the outlet improperly(because I elected not to remove it), causes a fire, etc. I signed in the agreement that all was done properly, I would still be on the hook. That could be a very expensive proposition.

3. Insurance. On the unlikely event, the outlet caused a fire and my unit ( I am in a townhouse) and the unit next to mine burns down or has fire damage, the insurance carrier could say I am not covered because I did not have a permit. This latter point has me more worried than the above points.

4. I will sleep better at nights knowing I did the right thing. I paid $350 for the line, outlet, wires, breaker and other parts and labor, this extra $450 will not break the bank. I received one quote for the former for $1000 which I thought was insane.

So to all on the forum, I have done a 180 on this. I am not suggesting the others to do so, it was my personal situation. You might agree or disagree, you are entitled to. For me, the permit was the best and honest way for me to go. FWIW I live in Westchester County, NY.
 
$450 for permit and inspection for a 14-50R 50 amp 240v line is crazy. I understand that you will sleep better so I don’t fault you for getting a permit.

If you’re sure you want a permit then I would call the electrician who did the work and ask him to pull the permit and schedule the inspection. That way he doesn’t get into trouble installing without a permit.

My electrician installed my Level 2 box without a permit. I never even thought to even ask for it. I had him run 2 other additional GFCI lines for an outdoor TV by the pool and a dedicated 20 amp GFCI for a toilet bidet seat. No permits were pulled.

I’ve sold 3 houses and bought 4 houses in the last 4 years. I filled out and received disclosure forms on all those properties. Each was inspected by independent inspectors and never was permit requests made for additions.

My sister just sold her house in a town in Westchester County. The private inspector gigged her for not having a 120 volt GFCI protected outlet by the pool. They also wanted verification that the pool and areas around were properly bonded. Never asked for a permit. Electrician installed the new outlet and verified pool bonding and did not pull a permit.
 
Flyct said:
$450 for permit and inspection for a 14-50R 50 amp 240v line is crazy. I understand that you will sleep better so I don’t fault you for getting a permit.

If you’re sure you want a permit then I would call the electrician who did the work and ask him to pull the permit and schedule the inspection. That way he doesn’t get into trouble installing without a permit.

My electrician installed my Level 2 box without a permit. I never even thought to even ask for it. I had him run 2 other additional GFCI lines for an outdoor TV by the pool and a dedicated 20 amp GFCI for a toilet bidet seat. No permits were pulled.

I’ve sold 3 houses and bought 4 houses in the last 4 years. I filled out and received disclosure forms on all those properties. Each was inspected by independent inspectors and never was permit requests made for additions.

My sister just sold her house in a town in Westchester County. The private inspector gigged her for not having a 120 volt GFCI protected outlet by the pool. They also wanted verification that the pool and areas around were properly bonded. Never asked for a permit. Electrician installed the new outlet and verified pool bonding and did not pull a permit.

I am having the electrician who did the work pull the permit from the town. The electrician charges $450, that will include him doing the paperwork, going down to the town to file and pay, and the inspection whether it is a town employee or a 3rd party. Is it pricey? Yes, I agree it is. I just don't feel good about not doing it.

You mention in your post "Independent Inspectors", I assume you are talking about people that a buyer hires to go over the house for potential problems. They give opinions on life of appliances or roofs, etc. I have had this done also in the past, but they carry no weight and their written report is full of disclaimers.

If you did not pull a permit on the work you stated above, and the new owner has a fire that was due to the outlet, then I would think you are still on the hook for damages. I don't remember reading that after some period of time you are not responsible. And of course you lied about it. Furthermore, if the new owner used the outlet improperly, had a fire, and there was no permit, then the owners insurance co could say they are not insured. I could see the owner coming after you. Not a position I elect to be in. You are taking a risk, I am not telling you not to take that risk but for me paying the $450 transfers all the risk.
 
Baltneu said:
...

3. Insurance. On the unlikely event, the outlet caused a fire and my unit ( I am in a townhouse) and the unit next to mine burns down or has fire damage, the insurance carrier could say I am not covered because I did not have a permit. This latter point has me more worried than the above points.

...

This is a myth that swirls around the internet and is perpetuated by posts like this. Insurance covers stupidity. It is there to covers the costs when something happens. For insurance to deny a claim, there has to be evidence of an intentional act by the insured to cause damage. There may be some policies with payout prevention clauses, but they are not as common as people are led to believe. If you have questions, read your policy or contact your insurance agent.

Did you verify the electrician is properly licensed to perform work in your jurisdiction? If so, and no permit was discussed, that needs to be reported, if a permit is actually required for the work that was done. Did you question the electrician about a permit?

When you go see about the permit, tell them you are installing the type of outlet that would be used to plug in a motor home, which is a common use for the 14-50 outlet. A permit and inspection for the work you had done should be less than $100 (in many places). It is possible they misunderstood and think you want to replace the whole electrical panel, which would explain the $450 permit fee.
 
baustin said:
Baltneu said:
...

3. Insurance. On the unlikely event, the outlet caused a fire and my unit ( I am in a townhouse) and the unit next to mine burns down or has fire damage, the insurance carrier could say I am not covered because I did not have a permit. This latter point has me more worried than the above points.

...

This is a myth that swirls around the internet and is perpetuated by posts like this. Insurance covers stupidity. It is there to covers the costs when something happens. For insurance to deny a claim, there has to be evidence of an intentional act by the insured to cause damage. There may be some policies with payout prevention clauses, but they are not as common as people are led to believe. If you have questions, read your policy or contact your insurance agent.

Did you verify the electrician is properly licensed to perform work in your jurisdiction? If so, and no permit was discussed, that needs to be reported, if a permit is actually required for the work that was done. Did you question the electrician about a permit?

When you go see about the permit, tell them you are installing the type of outlet that would be used to plug in a motor home, which is a common use for the 14-50 outlet. A permit and inspection for the work you had done should be less than $100 (in many places). It is possible they misunderstood and think you want to replace the whole electrical panel, which would explain the $450 permit fee.

Well in fact there are posts like this that are full of "stupidity". I am a Financial Planner and have also had an insurance license for the past 29 years, so I do know a little about the insurance and insurance claims process. There are many things that a property and casualty carriers insure, I never remember "stupidity" being a defense. The homeowner will have the burden of proof as given in this case where a licensed electrician did the work but did not pull the required permit. A "stupidity" excuse saying that you did not know and the electrician should have known will not get you, the homeowner off the hook. If there was an electrical fire in my garage, do you think the fire dept and town inspectors would not pinpoint the outlet, wiring or whatever to the culprit, lets say an electrician doing a poor or shortcut job. If this was the case, and the cause was the outlet/wiring the insurance co would say "not insured".

I say to people on the forum when it comes to the permit........."why take the risk of you do not have to?" The reason we don't do it is because we do not want to spend the extra monies. An I agree, the chances of a claim are remote. But to spend a few extra dollars now so we do not have a gigantic claim down the road seems like a good idea to me. Others might differ, and you are surely entitled to your thoughts. I think we have to remember why we buy insurance.....because pay a little to guarantee a lot, in the remote cases of a claim.

When I spoke with the town, they told me that if I did the work, I could apply for the permit. If the electrician did the work, he has to apply for the permit.
 
I would think that when hiring a licensed professional, that he/she would know and follow the local rules and requirements for when permits are required.

I carry a 2 million dollar umbrella liability policy to cover any crazy unexpected legal issues. Cheap insurance.
 
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