Airbnb Charging Option Suggestion

I suggested that Airbnb add a search option for electric car charging. So if anyone wants to add to that idea and maybe refine the suggestion. If you are an Airbnb owner maybe you would have some route that I don't.

My suggestion was:
"Where should I direct a suggestion to include a for charge service to charge electric cars? It should be an option when searching for a property. Like does the property have access to electric car charging and how much?

If the property has a 110v or 220v outlet that is accessible to a parking location then the owner could provide the opportunity to charge an electric car. Depending on location that would be worth from $10-50 per day. Cost to owner would be the cost of electricity / maintenance so would vary. The biggest battery a car has is the 100kw Tesla. Kw cost from 0 for solar to .30 in Hi. So max $30 but more like an average of .14 ($14 for 100kw) most cars are in the 30-40kw range and that is for 100% charging so not likely."

The idea came from trying to drive down Baja in my 2018 Leaf.

An owner south of Ensanada agreed to let me charge but the trip fell through. It would be great if the owner could advertise and charge for the charging service.

How would the service be described in a short message? I know that most cars do not need full charge but what would be the best way to describe it to a person who doesn't have an EV yet?

koolkev said:

If the property has a 110v or 220v outlet that is accessible to a parking location then the owner could provide the opportunity to charge an electric car. Depending on location that would be worth from $10-50 per day. Cost to owner would be the cost of electricity / maintenance so would vary. The biggest battery a car has is the 100kw Tesla. Kw cost from 0 for solar to .30 in Hi. So max $30 but more like an average of .14 ($14 for 100kw) most cars are in the 30-40kw range and that is for 100% charging so not likely."

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Your units are wrong. In all of the above cases, the correct units are kWh, not "Kw" or "kw".

See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=534519#p534519.

Having a "110v or 220v outlet" is not guarantee that an EV can be charged on it at all. We don't have 110 volts in the US, it's 120. If it's on a circuit shared w/something w/a large load on a 15 amp breaker, it will trip and stop. It could have loose prongs (cause major heat resulting in melting or a fire) or be otherwise dangerous (e.g. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=15784&hilit=outlet+fire#p352567 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=10887&hilit=outlet+fire+prius with a gory pic at the bottom).

If it had a "220v outlet", which I think you meant 240 volts, that's also not necessarily helpful. What amperage circuit is it on? Is it shared with anything? Which type is it? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector#/media/File:NEMA_simplified_pins.svg. Will the driver have something compatible with it? A 240 volt outlet is of no use to me as I don't even have a 240 volt L2 EVSE. I have nothing that can plug into it.

30 cents/kWh is too low a high mark. See page 1 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf, page 2 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf or pages 1 or 3 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV (Sch).pdf.

I did a chat with Airbnb's customer support and they directed me to their 'how are we doing page'. I changed the suggestion a little. Maybe someone else can make a similar suggestion.

I did the search for air bnb and see that there is a service like that just for charging. I like that but just like using plugshare and trip planning it is a hassle to get all the variables to jibe.

If air bnb can add a fee based vehicle charge then that might push regular hotels to up their game on charging. But Airbnb is in places where there are no hotels or other businesses so that would be a big change.

Big Island Hawaii for instance is 88 miles one side to the other so 160+ round trip. That makes EV's a hassle to rent there. Not many rentals so not many charging stations. But 100s of Airbnb's with likely outlets that could make that happen. Many other locations as well.

On Pacific Gouge & Extort, the lowest tier on E-1 (non-TOU plan) is 21.5 cents/kWh. And, the baselines are intentionally set to be insufficient. Tier 2 is almost 28.5 cents/kWh.

With the rate schedules I posted, the worst someone could be hit with is 46 cents/kWh. EV-A (page 1 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV (Sch).pdf) is even worse with a possible 48 cents/kWh.

To really be of significant use and to be usable by ALL mass-market highway legal consumer EV and PHEV automobiles sold in the US since Dec 2010, it must have a working J1772 EVSE installed, preferably 208 to 240 volts and at least 12 amps (30 would be better). J1772 is the least common denominator.

Vague and ambiguous descriptions like "110v or 220v outlet" can lead to lots of questions and unpleasant surprises (e.g. not able to charge, charging stopped or a fire). It could be hooked to a dangerous Federal Pacific or Zinsco panel --> fire. A competent licensed electrician installing a L2 J1772 EVSE would almost certainly put the kibosh on an install until the dangerous equipment is replaced.

I think that for the reasons above, 120 volt outlets should be free - just a draw for renters, not a paid service. An inspection by an electrician should be required unless the owner knows that it is a dedicated circuit in good shape. A 240 volt charging station would be dedicated if installed properly, but a 240 volt dryer or RV outlet would also need to be inspected.

"Should be free" means no incentive to install or deal with the problem.

I can't convince my wife that driving the Leaf on a long trip is viable. Most reasonable people agree with her. There are wide ares of the US that are 100 miles from the nearest public charging station. That is not considering other countries.

Roswell NM 150+ miles to the nearest station on plugshare. Level II station!

Roswell NM Airbnb looks like 20+ rentals in town. I could search each one of them and contact each one of them but forget that. That's not even dealing with getting to NM from my house in CA.

If 1% of the 600,000 airbnb hosts in the US provided 220v outlets the game would change (6,000). If they charged $20 a night extra some would pay and some would go seek out free charging elsewhere. I bet that between 15-50% of the locations have a 110v outlet that could be accessed and used for charging. I bet more than 10% could provide a 30a 220v outlet if they wanted to. 60,000 more locations on the map.

The IT people at Airbnb could easily add a button for the search. And the owners/AHJ/insurance companies could figure out what needs to be done about the correct / safe wiring.

Say a 110v at the outlet x 15a x 8hrs. = 13.3k so $20/13.2=$1.52/k so more than covers the highest rate anywhere.

Say a 220v outlet x 30a x 20hrs.=132kw so more than any current car. = $20/132=$.15 so would likely cover the electric cost in most areas.

Worst Case 100kw Tesla at 100% charge in the $.49 top rate = $49.00 in AC cost but that is never likely to happen.

More likely high usage case 220v x 30a x 8hr = 52k x $.49=$25.87 (all peak charging). So a $6 loss on the service.

With a fee some providers might be able to justify solar/ev metering/higher charging rates/ imagine that.

"Should be free" means no incentive to install or deal with the problem.

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No, it means that the presence of the outlet is an extra draw, like having a hot tub. Do you think that hot tubs should have coin slots?

You keep making a common mistake about US voltages. I might ignore them, but you are using them in calculations, thus rendering the calculations worthless. US household voltages are 120 volts and 240 volts. 208 volts are provided by some commercial (and a very few residential) charging facilities. The voltages you cite are from the mid twentieth century.

LeftieBiker said:

408 volts are provided by some commercial (and a very few residential) charging facilities.

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208 Volts. Typo.

Thanks. Fixed.

The idea of offering an outlet for charging at various home rentals seems very reasonable as our Nation transitions for ICE to EV transportation. Could it be as simple as mentioning the type of outlet (NEMA XXX) and location available, then the EV owner can decide if it useful or not? It would be the responsibility of the rental owner to ensure that the outlet can meet the max amperage rating of the outlet type (meets code?). If the outlet is not satisfactory, then the EV owner "moves on". Being from Texas (cheap) it's hard to imagine a significant cost of electricity being an issue unless there is a really high amperage outlet available! OTOH, if a renter has a 100 amp Tesla charger all set up in his garage in Hawiaii, might want to talk $$s :mrgreen:

EV owners trying to use "adapters" to override the amp ratings could be a problem, however hopefully it will simply cause a breaker to open!

Maybe an electrician can weigh in on some issues that would crop up.

koolkev said:

Say a 110v at the outlet x 15a x 8hrs. = 13.3k so $20/13.2=$1.52/k so more than covers the highest rate anywhere.

Say a 220v outlet x 30a x 20hrs.=132kw so more than any current car. = $20/132=$.15 so would likely cover the electric cost in most areas.

Worst Case 100kw Tesla at 100% charge in the $.49 top rate = $49.00 in AC cost but that is never likely to happen.

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Besides getting your voltages wrong, you keep getting your units wrong. K? As in kilobytes? In the US, household voltages are 120 or 240 volts. 208 volts is common for commercial power.

120 volts * 15 amps * 8 hours = 14,400 watt-hours = 14.4 kWh. Drawing 15 amps continually on a NEMA 5-15 on a 15 amp circuit is unsafe. Continuous load should be a max of 12 amps.

Not sure what you mean by "$1.52/k". You mean $1.52 per kWh?

By, "220v outlet x 30a x 20hrs.=132kw so more than any current car", do you mean 220 volts * 30 amps * 20 hours = 132,000 watt-hours or 132 kWh?

By "Worst Case 100kw Tesla at 100% charge in the $.49 top rate = $49.00 in AC cost but that is never likely to happen.", you talking about a 100 kWh Tesla at 49 cents per kWh? If the place has huge usage already, then each kWh could be 44 cents on E-1 (https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf).

You keep talking about outlets w/voltages (esp. "220v"), but yet I pointed out at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector#/media/File:NEMA_simplified_pins.svg there so many standards. My EV cannot plug into any of those other than NEMA 5-15 or NEMA 5-20 for 120 volts * 12 amps.

Even Tesla which sells a ton of adapters (see https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/product/vehicle-accessories/model-s_x_3-gen-2-nema-adapters.html) ships their US vehicles with a mobile connector and just NEMA 5-15 and 14-50. There are 6 others it doesn't ship with. Do even 30% of Tesla drivers buy all of the other 6 adapters? Turbocord (standard equipment with a couple EVs/PHEVs starting a few years ago) only comes with NEMA 6-20 but also can do NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 if you by the dual version.

J1772 level 2 208/240 volt EVSE installed by a licensed electrician that's at least 12 amps is the safest bet and least common denominator.

If a property listed "110v or 220v outlet", had no working J1772 EVSE and the host can't answer basic electrical or EV charging questions, then my assumption is "I will not be able to charge there. Or, if I can, I'll be lucky if it works."

Or you can let https://www.evmatch.com/
EV Match handle all the calculations. If you have an AirBnB and a smart charging station,
you could hook it to the EV Match network, and have them handle billing and most of the customer service.
I've done just this with a short term rental I manage.

VRBO has a way to declare you have an EV, but no way for a potential guest to search for EV friendly rentals.