Goodbye Leaf, Hello Model 3

Friends, today is the day I said goodbye to 2015 Leaf. 37962 miles. Leaf was a great car, reliable, fun, efficient, unique. Like an Apple car. However, Leaf was not a Model 3, which is exactly the car I always want - sedan, sleek, fast, roomy, innovative, interesting, electric. Telsa really knows their demographic. I don't know why there is no competitor to that car - SUVs we are told. Whatever, I like the sport sedan. Finally, the impending tax credit expiration and republican hostility pushed myself and tens of thousands of others over the edge. I traded in Leaf.

One hour driving Model 3 and it really is in a league of it's own. I had such high hopes for the new Leaf. I waited for it, I wanted it to be great. I tried it out, but it was not my dream car.

This is my last dash image. Leaf was a brave car still bragging about 90 miles range. I loved it.

Congrats!
We have been delighted with our Model 3; I hope you have a no less excellent experience.

Best of luck.

pipestem said:

Leaf was a brave car still bragging about 90 miles range.

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Chuckle

Agreed on all points. Leaf was great, Model 3 is magic.

Congrats to you on your dream car!!!

We are on different paths... as I cannot afford the $ for a Tesla vehicle, my current "dream car" is indeed.. the 2019 Leaf!!! Which I hope to purchase in the next few days

This will be my first EV.. and I'll gladly make due with the current range.

Coach you are going to love it. The jump from ICE to BEV is the big one. After that its just details. Cheers.

Hello Pipestem, and congratulations with your decision. We got our Model 3 mid-July and love, love, love it. We sold an ICE vehicle that, with the Model 3’s range, we no longer needed, but kept our 2012 LEAF SL, basically as a 2nd around-town vehicle, and the fact that we actually still like it. For me the LEAF is MUCH easier to get into and out of, and I still like the steering wheel heater in cold weather. It’s coming up on 7 years of ownership late next month, but it is still a fun and useful vehicle even with its now 10 bars and limited range.

...and then there’s the Model 3. Ohmahgosh!

SalisburySam said:

We sold an ICE vehicle that, with the Model 3’s range, we no longer needed, but kept our 2012 LEAF SL, basically as a 2nd around-town vehicle, and the fact that we actually still like it.
...and then there’s the Model 3. Ohmahgosh!

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1+
Our choices and sentiments to a tee

I wouldn't EVER buy a Leaf, wait for Hyndai Kona EV, 258 miles or range, liquid cooling and more warranty.

badq45t said:

I wouldn't EVER buy a Leaf, wait for Hyndai Kona EV, 258 miles or range, liquid cooling and more warranty.

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And yet you're participating in the premiere LEAF forum on the internet...thanks for sharing your opinion. Feel free to leave now.

We love our 3!

badq45t said:

I wouldn't EVER buy a Leaf, wait for Hyndai Kona EV, 258 miles or range, liquid cooling and more warranty.

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Hyundai EVs are compliance cars. You can't buy one unless you live in California or one of the other few blessed states.

pipestem said:

One hour driving Model 3 and it really is in a league of it's own. I had such high hopes for the new Leaf. I waited for it, I wanted it to be great. I tried it out, but it was not my dream car.

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Which trim did you get if you don't mind me asking? I know it's always weird to talk about what you spent on something but I am just trying to get a feel for how good this car is for the dollar.

The cheapest Tesla M3 I see available is $45,200 including destination and doc fee and the most expensive goes up to $71,200. It seems like a hell of a car but more in line with a 3 series BMW that goes from the 330i in the low $40,000's up to the M3 starting around $67k than a Nissan Leaf with an MSRP of $30k - $38k (plus the full $7500 tax credit). Given your willingness to likely spend $50k+ on a vehicle was it realistic to hope for a Leaf to be your dream car? They just seem like they are in a different league.

I really wish they had come out with the promised $35k Tesla M3 while the full tax credit was still available. I understand why they didn't, since they are barely keeping up with orders for the more expensive ones, but that would have actually given me something to compare an eplus Leaf (hopefully released next week), Bolt, and Kona to. I wonder what the specs on the $35k Tesla M3 would be... maybe 200 miles of range? 0-60 in 6-7sec? Cloth interior? Basic collision warning/avoidance?

Congrats on your purchase, it sounds like a great car and it is always cool to get something cutting edge. I'm definitely jealous, that kind of acceleration must be a blast...

golfcart said:

The cheapest Tesla M3 I see available is $45,200 including destination and doc fee and the most expensive goes up to $71,200. It seems like a hell of a car but more in line with a 3 series BMW that goes from the 330i in the low $40,000's up to the M3 starting around $67k

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There is still a $3,750 federal tax credit and whatever state credits might apply. However, the Model 3 really shows its value when paired with home PV.

I paid $40k after credits for my Model 3 and by using my home PV I expect to save ~ $14k - $20k in lifetime fuel (at current costs) compared to the BMWs you mention.

Back to the LEAF: If you say that the LEAF has close to the same fuel cost savings I obviously agree but the LEAF value is hammered by depreciation and battery degradation. Some people will try and argue that the LEAF's battery degradation and depreciation do not matter to them because of their use profile and willingness to never sell the car. To them I say: it is hard to know what the future brings, and a used LEAF is a whole lot cheaper. Buy a LEAF coming off lease that lived in a cool climate that Nissan has paid the steep depreciation for you.

However, as Nissan discounts the LEAF down towards $25k this comparison makes more sense to at least consider as a strict money argument. Just be very sure you can live with the car's degraded utility as it ages and include the costs of any ICE you are holding on to to make up for the LEAF's shortcomings.

SageBrush said:

Buy a LEAF coming off lease that lived in a cool climate that Nissan has paid the steep depreciation for you.

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You can not beat this best deal, probably ever, Amen.

I will keep driving my $10K after all rebates 2015 Leaf SV for a very, very long time and further it goes, the better deal it becomes. I do not drive a lot, but it saves > $1000 per year. Every time I stop at gas station to feel up my ICE cars (very rare after getting Leaf), I feel really dumb when paying for the gas.

SageBrush said:

golfcart said:

The cheapest Tesla M3 I see available is $45,200 including destination and doc fee and the most expensive goes up to $71,200. It seems like a hell of a car but more in line with a 3 series BMW that goes from the 330i in the low $40,000's up to the M3 starting around $67k

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There is still a $3,750 federal tax credit and whatever state credits might apply. However, the Model 3 really shows its value when paired with home PV.

I paid $40k after credits for my Model 3 and by using my home PV I expect to save ~ $14k - $20k in lifetime fuel (at current costs) compared to the BMWs you mention.

Back to the LEAF: If you say that the LEAF has close to the same fuel cost savings I obviously agree but the LEAF value is hammered by depreciation and battery degradation. Some people will try and argue that the LEAF's battery degradation and depreciation do not matter to them because of their use profile and willingness to never sell the car. To them I say: it is hard to know what the future brings, and a used LEAF is a whole lot cheaper. Buy a LEAF coming off lease that lived in a cool climate that Nissan has paid the steep depreciation for you.

However, as Nissan discounts the LEAF down towards $25k this comparison makes more sense to at least consider as a strict money argument. Just be very sure you can live with the car's degraded utility as it ages and include the costs of any ICE you are holding on to to make up for the LEAF's shortcomings.

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All interesting points but none address the fact that a $50k+ car with a $3750 tax credit and no ability to negotiate is being compared to a $35k car with a $7500 tax credit and probably $5k off MSRP at most dealerships. I'm just making the point that anyone who can afford to spend $50k+ on a Tesla is unlikely to see a Nissan Leaf as a "dream car". If Tesla actually make a $35k model 3 as they originally advertised, I would consider that a fair comparison but those are just vaporware as far as I can tell.

As far as my car comparison goes with the BMW... it may very well be a better long-term investment than an M3 where you live based on gas cost and EV + PV incentives but in terms of purchase price the BMW is a more reasonable comparison to the Tesla than a Leaf will ever be. That is all I'm saying. Just because the rest of population subsidized $12,500 off the purchase price of your EV and 30% of your solar panels (I don't know if Colorado subsidizes those as well) doesn't change that fact. The two manufacturers made relatively comparable cars in terms of performance and trim that they can sell at a profit for comparable prices.

To address your point about the leaf depreciation, I paid $25k out the door with 0% financing for 72 months for my 2015 Leaf S before any incentives. That means it was $17,500 after the federal credit. If I had the generous state subsidies you have in Colorado it would have been $12,500 out the door after incentives. Very few people pay MSRP for their Leaf. I could go buy a 2018 SL right now for about $32.5k out the door before incentives. That means I could get that SL for roughly $20k after incentives in Colorado.

The cars are not in the same league, that's all I am saying. For most of us the Tesla is not an option because of the high upfront costs. I am not criticizing the Tesla. I am sure it is a great car and the performance specs look tremendous for the cost. But if production EVs weren't so rare, the Tesla M3 and the Nissan Leaf would never be mentioned in the same sentence. It is like comparing a Toyota Corolla hatchback to a Lexus IS.

golfcart said:

I'm just making the point that anyone who can afford to spend $50k+ on a Tesla is unlikely to see a Nissan Leaf as a "dream car".

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I don't speak for others, but as someone who afforded the Tesla I can say the LEAF was voted down down due to Nissan, the battery degradation, the absence of good long distance charging, and the range. I do not spend money on glamour, and I try very hard to get good value.

You stereotype Tesla owners as well off people spending money on extravagance. I am telling you that my car is a value purchase when combined with PV compared to ICE vehicles; and it is a value purchase compared to the LEAF when utility and expected longevity are considered. I calculate TCO; you can calculate monthly costs if you prefer. But there is no logic in a partial accounting.

SageBrush said:

golfcart said:

I'm just making the point that anyone who can afford to spend $50k+ on a Tesla is unlikely to see a Nissan Leaf as a "dream car". [/quote

You stereotype Tesla owners as well off people spending money on extravagance. I am telling you that my car is a value purchase when combined with PV compared to ICE vehicles; and it is a value purchase compared to the LEAF when utility and expected longevity are considered. I calculate TCO; you can calculate monthly costs if you prefer. But there is no logic in a partial accounting.

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No stereotyping, I think you are just being defensive. 99% of Tesla owners are well off people, you can't get a $7500 federal tax credit if you aren't a well off person. You aren't putting a PV array on your single family home if you aren't a well off person. And you surely can't drop $50k on a car if you aren't a well off person. Most EV + PV owners are well off people (leaf owners included) because we an absorb the higher up front costs to get the benefits down the road.

And I never said anything about spending on extravagance, I just found it hard to believe that the OP thought a $35k leaf could be a "dream car" compared to a $50k+ Tesla M3. One is an economy hatchback and one is a luxury sedan. One costs $15k more than the other on the low end and $35k more than the other on the high end. I'd put that $32.5k out the door Leaf SL up against your $55k our the door Tesla in TCO over the next 5 years without hesitation. One is $40k after incentives in Colorado and the other is $20k after incentives. Maybe the Tesla resale will be $20k more than the leaf by then but I'd be shocked. It's all nonsense anyways, there are too many unknowns to calculate TCO of both cars and if TCO was the only concern we'd all get 5 year old used plug-in Prius that run forever and let us make our work commute on electricity most days anyways.

I hope the Teslas work out great for y'all and provide excellent TCO. I don't begrudge anyone for doing what they feel is best for their situation. I'm just saying we need to compare apples to apples. Nobody would put these two cars in the same class and there's no need to come on a Leaf forum and brag about how much better your new Tesla M3 is than the leaf.

golfcart said:

no need to come on a Leaf forum and brag about how much better your new Tesla M3 is than the leaf.

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I'm talking about cost of ownership for utility gained. In simple terms, the Tesla is worth the extra cost up front because it is not limited to only a subset of common duties and because it will remain so for for the same duration we have come to expect from well built ICE cars. The LEAF is cheaper up front but is a local duty car in a few short years (and perhaps from day #1)

$20 - 25k sounds good until you realize that you are up for another 20 - 25k in 5 - 10 years ... and you kept an ICE around anyway for when the LEAF was inadequate.