2018 Leaf Owners in Hot Climates?

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boba7523

New member
Joined
Aug 4, 2018
Messages
4
Hi Everyone,

New user here and looking for an EV as a commuter, and the 2018 Nissan Leaf caught my attention.

I live in Southern California where the summer temperatures average 105F (40C). I average about 55 miles (88km) on my daily commute, which consist of about 30% stop and go traffic about 5 to 25mph and 70% highway speeds (about 65mph).

I'd like to see if there are other 2018 Leaf owners living in hot climates (and hopefully in similar commuting scenario as I) who can offer their experiences on their range.

I understand in an ideal world, the range is about 150 miles. After reading several articles, I think the real world range for my unique scenario would be about 110 miles.

Thank you,
Peter
 
I don't live in a hot climate (although this Summer is Hot here) but I can address your points.

* The real world range in your situation should be close to 150 miles - maybe 130. The 2018 Leaf really does get the advertised range, unlike the original Leaf.

* If you only need a minimum range of about 80 miles for the length of a lease, you will have it, as the warranty will replace the pack if it drops below the capacity required to give you 80 miles.

Having given the good news above, I will now suggest that if you want to BUY an EV, as opposed to leasing one, keep looking. The Bolt would be a much better choice, as it has both more range and battery cooling.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I don't live in a hot climate (although this Summer is Hot here) but I can address your points.

* The real world range in your situation should be close to 150 miles - maybe 130. The 2018 Leaf really does get the advertised range, unlike the original Leaf.

* If you only need a minimum range of about 80 miles for the length of a lease, you will have it, as the warranty will replace the pack if it drops below the capacity required to give you 80 miles.

Having given the good news above, I will now suggest that if you want to BUY an EV, as opposed to leasing one, keep looking. The Bolt would be a much better choice, as it has both more range and battery cooling.

Gotcha... I just don't want to be able to drive 150 miles when I first get the car to only being able to drive 120 miles after a year of driving in SoCal because of battery degradation lol.
 
boba7523 said:
Gotcha... I just don't want to be able to drive 150 miles when I first get the car to only being able to drive 120 miles after a year of driving in SoCal because of battery degradation .
Extremely unlikely within one year but that amount of degradation in a LEAF by two years in your climate would not surprise me.
 
I live in Texas and the summer temperatures here are approximately what they are in southern California. I was a bit worried about the degradation due to heat especially since I park my car in direct sunlight over asphalt for 10 hours a day 4 days of the week. I have had my one and only 2018 LEAF since March 3rd of this year and have about 8800 miles on it.

My commute is 30 miles each way, and a couple days a week we go to the gym 11 miles each way. That makes between 60 and 82 miles each day of the week. The EPA range is 150, but I like to tell those who ask that the EPA range is not comparable to Texas driving. We do a lot of highway driving, and I would estimate the real world range to be 130 miles. Last week we drove 120 miles in a day, and the GOM indicated another 16 miles remaining at 8% state of charge. I do not have leaf spy.

As for the heat, I don't quick charge very often. I think in the time I've owned the car I have quick charged 4 times, or once every 2000 miles. I use level 2 charging in my garage each night with the supplied charge cable. I have noticed that the temperature of the battery when I leave the house is indicated as being higher than it is when I walk out to my car in the afternoon when it's 105. The battery cools off while it's sitting in the sun over asphalt.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, but I don't think the environmental heat concern is as much of a concern as the heat from excessive rate of charge/discharge. I'm hopeful that if I use level 2 charging and keep it ~65mph, this car will meet my needs for many years to come.

EDIT: I wanted to mention that I bought my LEAF. I needed a car now, and could not wait for a Model 3 or the 2019 LEAF. The dealer tried to persuade me to lease, and I'm glad I didn't. I think the dealers in cities underestimate the amount of driving distances of rural residents. The lease had a limit of 12,000 miles per year for 3 years. I'm on track to hit 20k this year. So, there's something to keep in mind.
 
wesofwaco said:
I use level 2 charging in my garage each night with the supplied charge cable. I have noticed that the temperature of the battery when I leave the house is indicated as being higher than it is when I walk out to my car in the afternoon when it's 105. The battery cools off while it's sitting in the sun over asphalt.

You might want to think about adding ventilation to your garage. Vents near the peak of the roof and near the floor would allow the cooler air outside to come in and cool garage at night. Or as close as you can get, my garage is vented on one wall ~3 feet about the floor and almost at the ceiling. I've covered it when it has gotten really cold outside. Fairly cheap if you do the work yourself. Buy an outdoor thermometer and stick it to the wall at car height and compare with outdoor temperatures. Also, if the doors are not insulated and get hot during the day, a fiberglass blanket can make a real difference during the day. I also have a box fan I use to blow air over the car after long drives with multiple QCs. These are all fairly cheap and probably pay off over time.

Some people have added AC to their garages. I don't think this makes financial sense.
 
Some people have added AC to their garages. I don't think this makes financial sense.

If Nissan sold a "battery temperature moderator" that would reduce battery heat while the car was parked in the garage for the hottest 3 months of the year, and it cost $15 a month, for only the months when used, I guess you'd pass on it as 'not making financial sense'...?
 
wesofwaco said:
EDIT: I wanted to mention that I bought my LEAF. I needed a car now, and could not wait for a Model 3 or the 2019 LEAF. The dealer tried to persuade me to lease, and I'm glad I didn't. I think the dealers in cities underestimate the amount of driving distances of rural residents. The lease had a limit of 12,000 miles per year for 3 years. I'm on track to hit 20k this year. So, there's something to keep in mind.

You can still lease a Leaf with a 20,000 miles/year lease. And then opt to buy it out or not at the end of the lease term. Defer the decision to buy until the end of the lease term. This is how that works. Nissan is able to write leases up to 15,000 miles/year and then, if you need 20,000 instead, you can offer to prepay mileage costs (a very reasonable 10c/mile) for the additional 5,000 miles (that would be $500 + sales tax/12 months = $43/month added to your monthly lease payment) for those additional 5,000 miles.

As you would expect, it will reduce your residual by almost $1500, since the car will depreciate a bit more due to the excess miles...

At the end of the lease term, it still is your call..whether you want to pay the residual and keep the car, or hand it back...

--

Fyi...I am on a similarly written 18,000 miles/year lease on my 2018 Leaf...
 
LeftieBiker said:
Some people have added AC to their garages. I don't think this makes financial sense.

If Nissan sold a "battery temperature moderator" that would reduce battery heat while the car was parked in the garage for the hottest 3 months of the year, and it cost $15 a month, for only the months when used, I guess you'd pass on it as 'not making financial sense'...?

I admit this is more complex that my first thoughts.

A vent might cost $15 total, and for some garages would reduce temperature by as much as a window mount AC could. Also, adding insulation to the garage doors $30 to $90, can help a lot. Probably want to do this with the AC options as well. Might also want to add insulation to the walls and roof.

A window mount AC costs more than $15 per month. Depending on size, anywhere from $130 to over $400, depending on size, efficiency and sound level. Then the monthly cost to keep the temperature below a setpoint: such as 25C, which would range from $45 per year for the smallest units and your three month of use to perhaps $600 or more for really hot places. That is going to vary a lot by climate, and also by how large and how well insulated the garage is.

So how do the two options compare for improving battery life?

Ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for. If you leave the car in the garage, this is the best case for the AC option. If you drive the car, go someplace for a short time, then return, the battery might stay close to the garage temperature. The AC option will look better. If you work, then go do things in the evening, the battery might stay closer to the outdoor temperature, and there would be less gain from the AC and the AC is mostly cooling an empty garage during the hot part of the day.

So let's look at the first driving pattern. If the outside temperature is averaging 35C (that's way hotter than you) and the garage and battery temperature is 25C, then battery capacity loss would be half as fast for calendar loss. Assume the battery is ~$8000, and would last without AC for 8 years/100k miles at an average temperature of 25C (should actually do rather better in your climate). With the AC, calendar loss would decrease, but cycling loss would continue. So perhaps the battery might last for 12 years/150k miles. So the yearly battery cost might decrease from $1000 to $667, perhaps enough to pay for the AC. Maybe.

If you are in a climate where you would just miss the warranty replacement, and you can AC the garage for less than $333 per hot month, and your driving pattern is the drive somewhere then return soon, car is mostly in the garage, then it might make sense.

If your climate will get the warranty replacement, then you would miss out on a free battery.
If your climate is cooler, then the battery is going to last the average life of the car, 11.5 years.
If you commute to work, the AC is mostly cooling an empty garage.

A vent and some insulation probably pays off, unless you miss a warranty replacement battery.
 
A vent might cost $15 total, and for some garages would reduce temperature by as much as a window mount AC could. Also, adding insulation to the garage doors $30 to $90, can help a lot. Probably want to do this with the AC options as well. Might also want to add insulation to the walls and roof.

A window mount AC costs more than $15 per month. Depending on size, anywhere from $130 to over $400, depending on size, efficiency and sound level. Then the monthly cost to keep the temperature below a setpoint: such as 25C, which would range from $45 per year for the smallest units and your three month of use to perhaps $600 or more for really hot places. That is going to vary a lot by climate, and also by how large and how well insulated the garage is.

So how do the two options compare for improving battery life?

So you know how much it takes to keep my garage no warmer than 77F, eh? I only have to run the unit 6 hours a night, usually on Medium, and not every night at that. Vents do nothing when the ambient temp is hot, but I also use ventilation by the simple expedient of opening one of the big doors for an hour on cool mornings. Now just consider the apparently unthinkable possibility that you may have been wrong, and move on. I agree that my method won't work for someone who drives a lot, but for me my $15 pack moderator does the job. The problem is that this pack seems to need ambient temps usually found in Scotland, not the continental US.
 
LeftieBiker said:
The problem is that this pack seems to need ambient temps usually found in Scotland, not the continental US.

Based on what?

Seriously, why the pessimism? I don't see the evidence. If I missed it, point me to it.

There hasn't been enough time, realistically, to get a good measurement of how fast the cars will degrade. I'm not convinced by minor variation of the BMS's estimates, we have seen how bad the BMS estimate was for the 30kWh batteries, and I've seen huge variation in my 2014. The test of time requires time.

Other than pointing out the initial cost of the AC unit, I mostly agreed with your cost estimate. Didn't you notice?

What I don't see is how much your method reduces battery temperatures in your climate. Do you have measurements you care to share? The largest gain would come from someone in a hotter climate, where a larger reduction in battery temperature is reasonable at a higher energy cost than you would have. In your climate you should be looking at battery life of around 12 years or more, as you are generally cooler than the US average, and it is a fair bet that Nissan set the warranty threshold so that most people didn't qualify. Syracuse, NY and Seattle, WA have similar battery aging profiles. Both have an aging factor of 0.69 from Stoaty's model.
 
You just dismissed BMS numbers, so why bother to look them up for you? The short answer is that my garage cooling appears to reduce pack temp by an average of one bar while I'm driving in hot weather. The A/C unit, BTW, had been sitting around here since 1990, when I last used it to cool the garage. It was used even then. IOW it was free. A new HE unit would cost $99.
 
LeftieBiker said:
You just dismissed BMS numbers, so why bother to look them up for you? The short answer is that my garage cooling appears to reduce pack temp by an average of one bar while I'm driving in hot weather.

I've seen my LeafSpy estimated capacity increase 13% in a few days. Do you think that is real? Recharge tests done carefully at a known temperature on the same car is good evidence. A multicar range test with multiple cars of different ages is also good evidence. Carefully controlled dynamo tests, those are believable.

LeafSpy's report of the BMS's estimates is not believable.

Don't forget the 30kWh battery BMS bug.

Want to convince me? Show believable evidence.

LeafSpy temperatures with your garage cooling?
 
Actually, I don't care what you think, and I usually filter you, mostly because of your dogged persistence in arguing. I'm just making sure that people know that, given reasonable rates and a garage that has lots of thermal mass, it isn't expensive to keep one in the tolerable zone for a Leaf pack. You can have the last word, unseen by me.
 
hello,

This thread has gone inactive for a bit. I am currently very interested in purchasing a used 2018 leaf, however i have heard that there are degradation issues with the battery and seeing that i live on a Caribbean island where the temperature is on average 32.5°c during the day time and like 21°C-24°C at night i thought it prudent to enquire of your wisdom and experience first. Now i have read that parking the car in cool areas is important and i do have a nice shady garage with good ventilation and it does from time to time get cool Caribbean breezes blowing through but i am wondering is it a lost cause seeing that from this thread some one said that it is paramount to keep the battery at 25°C. My commute to work and back is about 60 km.

What i'm asking is for your opinion with the information i have given. Do you think a leaf would be a viable option for the next 6-8 years? I appreciate your honest input. Thanks
 
There is evidence of accelerated degradation in Arizona, at least with the 40kwh battery. There seems less of that with the 62kwh pack. It will be a few years before we know a lot more.
 
evs4life said:
hello,

This thread has gone inactive for a bit. I am currently very interested in purchasing a used 2018 leaf, however i have heard that there are degradation issues with the battery and seeing that i live on a Caribbean island where the temperature is on average 32.5°c during the day time and like 21°C-24°C at night i thought it prudent to enquire of your wisdom and experience first. Now i have read that parking the car in cool areas is important and i do have a nice shady garage with good ventilation and it does from time to time get cool Caribbean breezes blowing through but i am wondering is it a lost cause seeing that from this thread some one said that it is paramount to keep the battery at 25°C. My commute to work and back is about 60 km.

What i'm asking is for your opinion with the information i have given. Do you think a leaf would be a viable option for the next 6-8 years? I appreciate your honest input. Thanks
No one knows exactly how long a 2018 battery will last, as they have yet to be out long enough. I'm sure you will get lots of FUD from the Tesla crowd.

Degradation doesn't have a threshold. It roughly following an Arrhenius relationship, with life doubling for about every 10C reduction in temperature. You are warm, and would be warm all the time. But not as hot as places in the USA like Arizona. So I'd guess (and everyone is guessing!) that you would have better life to about 65% than the warranty of 8 years. As the car is already over 2 years old, and as you can likely live with less than 75% of capacity, I'd say yes, this would likely work for you for 6 to 8 years.
 
WetEV said:
No one knows exactly how long a 2018 battery will last, as they have yet to be out long enough. I'm sure you will get lots of FUD from the Tesla crowd.

No one really knows how long any battery will last for that matter. There are just too many non-empirical variables involved to do anything but generalize.

But given the 2018 2nd Generation battery is now about to enter it's 6th year of real-world testing and use, it has had more than enough time
to establish a reliability track record.

That's 2 years in development and grueling 24/7 testing in Arizona and the middle-east in 2016-2017 and going on 4 years of production use (2018-2021) by tens of thousands of customers world-wide over millions of miles. In that time there have been few if any customer complaints except for a few regarding cell manufacturing defects.

The 2nd generation battery has already exceeded the production life of the original 24 kWh battery and its variants with none of the issues that it's predecessor designs had.

It's time to acknowledge that the 2nd generation battery has proven its durability and reliability and is superior to the 1st generation battery series.
 
Fully agree.

The only thing I have heard is 2 or 3 packs from different places which were used as cabs (all 40 packs) which had their rear stack buckle. I have only ever seen 1 picture. I have yet to see 1 pic of a 2018+ Leaf with 11 bars.
 
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