I have a Leaf, so now what?

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IssacZachary

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2017
Messages
881
Location
Gunnison, CO, USA
Circumstances.
  • The Leaf is almost paid off.
  • I can only afford a $200-$250/month car payment or less on one car and insurance on up to two cars. (Currently pay $220/month car payment for Leaf)
  • The wife hates the fact that we have to take the 1985 VW Golf diesel that has about 500,000 miles on it on long trips even though it gets up to 60mpg and just won't die.
  • We love the Leaf but I keep wondering if it's time to trade it in or not.

Reasons for keeping the Leaf.
  • We live where it's cold.
    • This affects comfort and safety (window frost) for daily short range driving. I hate idling, but don't mind prewarming the Leaf. In other words, the Leaf is awesome, but anything ICE needs idling, which I hate.
    • This affects engine longevity, fuel mileage and emissions. Starting a cold engine several times per day is bad. But the Leaf doesn't have an engine. In fact the cool weather here should extend it's battery life (Average temperature for the hottest summer days is 64°F).
      daily_high_and_low_temperature_temperature_f.png
  • It may be economic to keep.
    • I'm not rich, so $180 in electricity + $480 in insurance + $240 in license plate fees per year (about $75 per month) is a good thing.
    • Every mile I put on the Leaf is another mile I'm not putting on an ICE. (Hence tires, shocks and such should be all about the same relatively speaking, but only with less ICE maintenance).
  • Having two cars means I'll always have a back up.
    • I'd walk to work and the store if I didn't have a car. But at -30°F my wife probably wouldn't be so happy. And renting for several days can be expensive.

Reasons for dropping the Leaf.
  • Operating costs on two cars may be more than just one.
    • So I would save on fuel with the Leaf. But not on insurance and licensing fees. Yearly depreciation would affect both too. I can only drive one car at a time, so why own and pay for two?
    • That situation where both cars end up needing repairs at the same time seems to always happen (Murphy's law). Then I'd have to decide which I can fix and which I can't.
  • Selling the Leaf could get me a better single car.
    • I'm pretty strapped right now and can't make a big car payment. However, if I got a few thousand for the Leaf that would sure make a nice down payment.

Other thoughts
  • We wish our Leaf could be our only car.
    • We love the Leaf, but do need to drive long distances (usually around 200 miles, but sometimes more) on a weekly basis.
    • We've tried renting, borrowing and taking public transportation as well as making such long trips in the Leaf over our poor charging infrastructure. But we've came to the conclusion that we need a long distance car, preferably something very economical.
    • The idea of a pusher or generator trailer keeps coming to mind, but I'm not sure I want to go that route for a weekly basis, although I could still do a lot of charging in route and end up needing very little ICE power most of the time.
  • I keep getting bad feelings about certain other cars.
    • Trading in the Leaf for a longer range EV seems like a logical step. But I keep getting the feeling that it is much too expensive right now. I have to keep payments below $250 per month. Maybe a battery trailer would be better?
    • Hybrids scare me. Reviews say they cost more to operate than plain ICEV's. Plus if I trade in the Leaf I hear that most older hybrids (the ones that I would be able to afford) don't do well in the cold for town driving. And getting a hybrid as a second car to the Leaf for long distance driving may make the fuel mileage not any better than a regular ICEV.
    • I don't want to get less than steller fuel mileage. I know the ol' Golf spews out black clouds of death, but I love getting up to 60mpg (US) on the highways and it just won't break down. And maintenance is minimal on it. Is there a car like it that is also nicer and won't cost me more than what I can afford? Maybe a 2014 Mitsubishi Mirage? Perhaps a Prius of some year? Heaven forbid, a dieselgate VW? Or sell the Leaf and get the old car painted and upholstered?

Conclusion
So far it seems best to keep the Leaf, get it paid off, and then get something newer and cleaner than the 1985 Golf diesel. But I'm not sure exactly what to get though to replace it. I don't want to lose a fortune. Also what is it that I'm missing or thinking wrong? I'd hate to get rid of our beloved Leaf and trusty VW diesel for something that we don't like or kills us in repair bills.
 
The Leaf is almost paid off, and is a great vehicle for your driving needs. The VW is over 30 years old. Neither vehicle is worth much as a trade-in. Keep the Leaf for yourself. Keep the VW as your backup, with just liability insurance (to minimize insurance expense).

Take the money available for a monthly payment and buy the car that your wife is happy with. It will be one of the best decisions you ever make.
 
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Keep both cars, minimize insurance costs, look for a good deal on a Toyota Camry 4 cylinder - gets good mileage and excellent repair record. Also you could check out Consumer Reports recommendations on used cars - a good starting point.
 
Thanks for all the posts!

According to KBB I could get around 7,000 for a trade in or $9,000 selling to a private seller for the Leaf. The VW might bring in some $500 to a private seller! I'd probably have to pay for a dealer to take it! :lol:

LeftieBiker said:
You could sell the Leaf and VW and get a used 2015-2016 Volt.

Nubo said:
Agreed. A recent used Volt seems to fit the wants and needs.

Looks like a used 2015-2016 Volt goes for $15,000 and up. So with a $7,000-$9,000 or so trade in, I'd owe around $7,000, which is within my budget. Just a couple questions. How do those do in the cold? I mean, waking up to freezing temps 8 or 9 months out of the year? Does the ICE have to run for heat?

Also what kind of fuel mileage should be expected on the long trips? Do those have a 6kW or 3kW charger? I love my Leaf's 6kW charger and the ability to put on 25 miles for each hour I'm parked. Not that a 3kW charger would ruin my day with a gasoline back up. It just means I'll be using more gasoline some days.

I just wonder if a $7,000 +40mpg or +50mpg highway car plus my 75 e-mile Leaf would be better than a 37mpg highway/38 e-mile Volt by itself especially if the gasoline engine ends up kicking on during my daily driving for heating or something else.

Thanks!

joeriv said:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I know! But the VW just won't break down! This thing will continue to run for another million miles before it dies. Great car in terms of fuel mileage, reliability and longevity. (I this Rabbit is related to the Energizer Bunny). Terrible car in terms of AC, heating, safety and power. No cruise control either.

baustin said:
Buy the car that your wife is happy with. It will be one of the best decisions you ever make.

That is some wise advice! ;)

armmynissanleaf said:
Great post. What about the New Leaf instead of the Volt?
Don't make me drool! 150 mile range would cover my regular weekly drives since I can destination charge. Basically I'd go 70 miles, get some charge, do another 30 or so miles, then charge again and go home in another 70 miles. All very doable in a 2018 Leaf. The only thing left would be those longer trips. But this would still be doable in a 2018 Leaf.
But still, what kind of price am I looking at? Could monthly payments be kept under $250?
 
Keep the LEAF--it is the best front wheel drive car available for your local driving needs because you can preheat while plugged in and short trips with cold starts won't hurt it. The traction battery should last a long time for your local driving needs and fuel cost is much lower than alternatives.

You are not going to find an ICE car new enough to have OBDII diagnostic port that will get decent fuel mileage for short trips with cold starts. The fuel injection systems on every late model car or light truck I have driven in cold weather appears to burn extra fuel to warm the engine and catalytic converter quicker. Example: I have a 1988 pickup and 2004 SUV with the same cast iron 6-cylinder fuel injected engine. The 1988 takes a while to warm up enough to get heat and defrost, but average fuel mileage is only slightly lower than in warmer temperatures. The 2004 warms up and provides heat/defrost much quicker, but average fuel mileage is probably only 60% of what it is in warmer temperatures for short trips. Fuel mileage on long trips is only slightly lower because the wasted fuel for each cold start is averaged with the normal consumption during the long trip. This issue is not really noticeable in moderate temperatures, but is consistent when I spend time in Arizona's high country which has temperatures similar to yours. I see the same issue with office vehicles (various SUVs and pickups) when we have projects in the high country during the winter. I think there is even some extra fuel consumption while idling after the engine is warm (such as while using the vehicle as a portable office at a construction site).

I'm fairly sure the early Volts ran the gas engine for heat, but don't know about the later ones. As far as I know, the Volts have 3.3 kW chargers and do not have DCQC ports. I think it would be best to keep the LEAF and put the money you would spend on a Volt toward a suitable ICE car for long distance.
 
Living in a cold climate and not wanting the ICE to kick in is what drove me to a Leaf, AFAIK on a Volt you'd have to trick it to not have the ICE kick in and even then you'd have no heat! Living in a cold climate I didn't want a car that would be EV only 5-7 month/year so I got the Leaf.
If we were starting from scratch in this market I'd probably have gotten a new Prime, ability to heat on battery only, heat pump heater and unlimited great MPG on gas. Of course, you probably couldn't get the payments you wanted on a new Prime, but it's a thought. The Volt sounds nice in theory but in my area, I didn't think it made as much sense.
 
Given your financial situation, maintain the status quo for now, then purchase a used Bolt or 2018 Leaf in 2 or 3 years from now once those cars have depreciated enough to be affordable.

Payments of $250 per month on a 5 year loan would be about $13.5K principal, depending on interest rate. So, if your used Leaf is still worth $6K at that time, you'd have almost $20K. Don't know if that would be enough for a used Bolt or 2018 Leaf...

If you could save for a down payment over the next few years, that would help.
 
Looks like a used 2015-2016 Volt goes for $15,000 and up. So with a $7,000-$9,000 or so trade in, I'd owe around $7,000, which is within my budget. Just a couple questions. How do those do in the cold? I mean, waking up to freezing temps 8 or 9 months out of the year? Does the ICE have to run for heat?

Also what kind of fuel mileage should be expected on the long trips? Do those have a 6kW or 3kW charger? I love my Leaf's 6kW charger and the ability to put on 25 miles for each hour I'm parked. Not that a 3kW charger would ruin my day with a gasoline back up. It just means I'll be using more gasoline some days.

I just wonder if a $7,000 +40mpg or +50mpg highway car plus my 75 e-mile Leaf would be better than a 37mpg highway/38 e-mile Volt by itself especially if the gasoline engine ends up kicking on during my daily driving for heating or something else.

I'm not a Volt expert, but I think I can answer a lot of this. The Volt would have a 3.3kw charger. You can set the car to run the engine only if it drops to...15F, IIRC? It does have a 5kw resistance heater, and I believe you can preheat it. On trips of less than 100 miles the Volt would get excellent overall fuel economy. On trips longer than that it would drop off because of that 37MPG on gas only. If you're ok with using gas for longer trips, the Volt make a good EV for 40 miles. How long are your typical local trips, again?
 
I'd second the suggestion of trading cars with a friend or relative when you want to leave town. Most of my friends love to drive through Leaf. I gave my dad a test drive, and he wouldn't turn around to go home.

If you want a non-hybrid, non diesel high highway mpg, I'd suggest finding a model yeat which is cheap enough to fit your budget, then search on Best Hwy MPG for that year (and ignore the diesel and hybrids in the list). For example, 2013 Cruze(42), Versa(40), Sentra(40), 323(40). It may pay to buy a gas car old enough that you can avoid collision insurance.
 
jjeff said:
Living in a cold climate and not wanting the ICE to kick in is what drove me to a Leaf, AFAIK on a Volt you'd have to trick it to not have the ICE kick in and even then you'd have no heat! Living in a cold climate I didn't want a car that would be EV only 5-7 month/year so I got the Leaf.
If we were starting from scratch in this market I'd probably have gotten a new Prime, ability to heat on battery only, heat pump heater and unlimited great MPG on gas. Of course, you probably couldn't get the payments you wanted on a new Prime, but it's a thought. The Volt sounds nice in theory but in my area, I didn't think it made as much sense.

It's true that you'd need to trick the Volt into keeping the ICE off in temperatures under 15F. There is a simple module being distributed for that purpose that puts a resistor in the Outside Temperature detection circuit. If you did that, you could still be pure EV for limited ranges - say 25 miles or so with electric Heat for a 2015 or older at those temperatures. At one point I exceeded 10,000 straight EV miles because of the switch in my Volt.

With your weekly 200 mile trip, it wouldn't matter whether the ICE ran early or not, you'd still use up the 10 kWh usable capacity of the battery fairly quickly.

Physical space (specifically headroom) and price are the reasons I continue to drive the used Leaf I purchased over the Volt, which has transitioned to my son. I'm still able to use the Volt for longer trips if needed. In your position, you should still consider an older Volt - from 2013 to 2015.
 
A Prius Prime is a fair idea since Colorado has a $5,000 refundable tax credit. On top of the $4,250 Federal tax credit (presuming enough tax liability,) the Prime can be inexpensive, under $10k if the LEAF really sells as OP hopes.

I bought mine for $25,500 before local taxes,
Paid $900 to ship it to Colorado from NY
Then paid $1500 TTL
Tax credits totaled $9,250

uc
 
silverone said:
jjeff said:
Living in a cold climate and not wanting the ICE to kick in is what drove me to a Leaf, AFAIK on a Volt you'd have to trick it to not have the ICE kick in and even then you'd have no heat! Living in a cold climate I didn't want a car that would be EV only 5-7 month/year so I got the Leaf.
If we were starting from scratch in this market I'd probably have gotten a new Prime, ability to heat on battery only, heat pump heater and unlimited great MPG on gas. Of course, you probably couldn't get the payments you wanted on a new Prime, but it's a thought. The Volt sounds nice in theory but in my area, I didn't think it made as much sense.

It's true that you'd need to trick the Volt into keeping the ICE off in temperatures under 15F. There is a simple module being distributed for that purpose that puts a resistor in the Outside Temperature detection circuit. If you did that, you could still be pure EV for limited ranges - say 25 miles or so with electric Heat for a 2015 or older at those temperatures. At one point I exceeded 10,000 straight EV miles because of the switch in my Volt.

With your weekly 200 mile trip, it wouldn't matter whether the ICE ran early or not, you'd still use up the 10 kWh usable capacity of the battery fairly quickly.

Physical space (specifically headroom) and price are the reasons I continue to drive the used Leaf I purchased over the Volt, which has transitioned to my son. I'm still able to use the Volt for longer trips if needed. In your position, you should still consider an older Volt - from 2013 to 2015.
Thanks for clarifying, when I was looking at a Volt(before getting my Leaf) I don't think it was so cut and dried on how to do the 15F trick.
Like you, besides the 15F issue I also couldn't stand the cockpit design of the Volt and felt VERY cramped! headroom, hip room, leg room, etc. I also disliked the huge shifter(or at least huge compared to our Prius or the little mouse on the Leaf, just didn't care for the design(inside) of the Volt, I really liked the exterior, in fact more than my rather ugly(IMO) Leaf.
 
Thanks for the posts, answers, idea and constructive criticism.

GerryAZ said:
Keep the LEAF--...

alozzy said:
<span>Given your financial situation, maintain the status quo for now, then purchase a used<a class="interlinkr" href="http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum" target="_blank"> Bolt <span class="tip">Visit the Chevy Bolt EV</span></a>or 2018 Leaf in 2 or 3 years from now once those cars have depreciated enough to be affordable.</span>
...
If you could save for a down payment over the next few years, that would help.

Patience is a virtue. I think up follow your advice and save with the Leaf and Golf until I find something that shouts "Buy me!" in neon signs from heaven. Leaf 2 (especially the 60kWh) Bolt and Tesla 3 could all work if the price is right.

specialgreen said:
I'd second the suggestion of trading cars with a friend or relative when you want to leave town...

If you want a non-hybrid, non diesel high highway mpg...
I'm afraid that trading cars on a weekly basis would get old really quick. I have tried it a few times. It is a very good idea on paper. But then what if someone wrecks one of the cars? Or what it both need to go far the same day in opposite directions? Maybe if the were a way to assume partial ownership on paper. It's just too complicated and risky.

And it's not that I'm against hybrids or diesels. I just don't want to pay more in order to "save money," which wouldn't actually be saving money especially if the car is less comfortable for more money.

silverone said:
It's true that you'd need to trick the Volt into keeping the ICE off in temperatures under 15F.

SageBrush said:
A Prius Prime is a fair idea since Colorado has a $5,000 refundable tax credit. On top of the $4,250 Federal tax credit (presuming enough tax liability,) the Prime can be inexpensive, under $10k if the LEAF really sells as OP hopes.
So I'm putting the Volt and the Prius Prime on my radar. Any idea what a 2018 Leaf would work out to?

LeftieBiker said:
How long are your typical local trips, again?</span>
It averages 30 miles but can vary greatly. Basically my job involves services within a 35 mile radius. One day I do 10 miles and another 100. The Leaf seems to work fine although I do at times need to charge mid day at or near a destination. Hence my preference for the faster charger.
 
One car that just caught my attention is the Honda Civic GX CNG car as an addition to my Leaf. It might not get stellar fuel mileage nor have a stellar range, but CNG is so cheap!
 
LeftieBiker said:
You could sell the Leaf and VW and get a used 2015-2016 Volt.
I haven't read the entire OP nor most of the replies, but FWIW, the '16 Volt has a lousy reliability rating from Consumer Reports. Seems like all of gen 2 Volt isn't doing so well in this dept, which is too bad given all the welcome improvements in the gen 2.

'15 Volt (last year of gen 1) has a very good reliability rating.
IssacZachary said:
One car that just caught my attention is the Honda Civic GX CNG car as an addition to my Leaf. It might not get stellar fuel mileage nor have a stellar range, but CNG is so cheap!
They are not very easy to find since their sales (and production?) numbers were so low.

Also, from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=179304#p179304:
Devin said:
-Service and maintenance are costly and must be done by specific CNG certified Honda dealers. Regular car stuff can be done at any dealer or by yourself (my girlfriend does the oil changes and stuff) but the CNG specific stuff must go to Honda, and that can be every other service. For us that means a 50 mile drive to Palmdale to the competent and reasonably priced Robertson Palmdale Honda. Also, the CNG cylinder is only certified for 15 years so after 15 years by law it MUST be replaced.
 
FWIW, the '16 Volt has a lousy reliability rating from Consumer Reports.


Good catch. I had remembered the reliability issues starting with 2017, and had forgotten the model refresh happened in 2016. So yes, make that a 2014 or 2015 Volt.
 
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