The Early Demise of the $7500 Credit is BAD News

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LeftieBiker

Well-known member
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If you are like me you had almost forgotten about the Trump Administration's plan to eliminate the EV tax credit - there is so much major chaos in Washington that it seemed a distant threat. Well, now that its end is spelled out (as vaguely as possible) in the 2018 Budget, it looks like my plan to wait until Spring and then lease a 2018 Leaf is dead. Now I have to look at leasing a Bolt in a region where they are NOT being heavily discounted, or lease a mediocre 2017 Leaf that I would at least find familiar, or, if both are too expensive, abandon leasing another new EV altogether and start shopping for a used Leaf. It's pretty discouraging for me, and I'm sure that I'm not alone. What do you folks make of all this, and how much have your plans changed...?
 
I'm going to purchase a Tesla Model 3 regardless of credit or not. But it's replacing my minivan - I'm planning to keep the Leaf.
 
The loss of the credit will obviously hit those of us with modest incomes the hardest. I won't be able to lease a Leaf without the $7500 applied up front. As for the Bolt, if GM stops cutting lease costs I'll be in a similar situation with that. Image what Nissan execs must be thinking about now...
 
I say don't go all Chicken Little until the bills are actually up for debate. What the current Administration is proposing is likely a long way from what the Lawmakers will actually be voting on by the time it gets in front of them. Make your plans, based on what they are proposing, but don't do anything until things are much more definite.
 
I'll wait as long as safely possible, but try to keep in mind that the EV tax credit is low hanging fruit for chopping. There will be only modest opposition, and even that will only serve to make it more enticing, as it will come from the Liberals the Republicans want to hurt most. Compared with things like mortgage interest deductions and state tax deductions, the EV credit is a relative no-brainer to cut, and fairly politically safe as well.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I'll wait as long as safely possible, but try to keep in mind that the EV tax credit is low hanging fruit for chopping. There will be only modest opposition, and even that will only serve to make it more enticing, as it will come from the Liberals the Republicans want to hurt most. Compared with things like mortgage interest deductions and state tax deductions, the EV credit is a relative no-brainer to cut, and fairly politically safe as well.
True, but the giveaway to the corporate world is the substance of the proposed tax law. If that fails, the entire bill will fail. So do yourself a favor and stop trying to convince anybody whether the EV tax credit should stay, and focus your efforts on the unfunded, massive corporate giveaway at everybody's expense.
 
SageBrush said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
What giveaway?
1.3 Trillion over 10 years. Did that paltry sum escape your attention ?
Looks like somebody's been studying zero sum equations.
Try this little experiment some time: Make a water balloon with a latex glove and squeeze one of the fingers. Then go back and think harder about things that *sound* good, like $15 minimum wage and the third highest corporate tax rate in the world.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
SageBrush said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
What giveaway?
1.3 Trillion over 10 years. Did that paltry sum escape your attention ?
Looks like somebody's been studying zero sum equations.
Try this little experiment some time: Make a water balloon with a latex glove and squeeze one of the fingers. Then go back and think harder about things that *sound* good, like $15 minimum wage and the third highest corporate tax rate in the world.
You live in fantasy land. The tax giveaway is REAL and a fact, from the day it becomes law. The Repub fantasy of GDP growth is just that. You of course are more than welcome to finance it and reap any future rewards. It's easy, really: take any fraction of your paycheck and buy corporate bonds or stock.

Deal ? Just don't take my money to play out your fantasy.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
SageBrush said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
What giveaway?
1.3 Trillion over 10 years. Did that paltry sum escape your attention ?
Looks like somebody's been studying zero sum equations.
Try this little experiment some time: Make a water balloon with a latex glove and squeeze one of the fingers. Then go back and think harder about things that *sound* good, like $15 minimum wage and the third highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Try this little experiment. Read a book. Find one example of when tax cuts on the wealthy increased GDP. The congressional budget office (which used to be considered a conservative leaning insititution until Fox news took over the republican party) has predicted it won't work and later shown it doesn't work time and time again.

Please report back on any references.
 
webb14leafs said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
SageBrush said:
1.3 Trillion over 10 years. Did that paltry sum escape your attention ?
Looks like somebody's been studying zero sum equations.
Try this little experiment some time: Make a water balloon with a latex glove and squeeze one of the fingers. Then go back and think harder about things that *sound* good, like $15 minimum wage and the third highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Try this little experiment. Read a book. Find one example of when tax cuts on the wealthy increased GDP. The congressional budget office (which used to be considered a conservative leaning insititution until Fox news took over the republican party) has predicted it won't work and later shown it doesn't work time and time again.

Please report back on any references.
Yep.

The last time "supply side economics" was tried in the US was during the Reagan era and it was a total failure. One might think that taxing the poor to enrich the rich would politely die, but like bell bottom jeans and therapeutic enemas, it just returns every generation to befuddle a new generation of morons who do not read history.

At its most basic, corporate tax cutting works when capital constrains growth. That has not been true for any OECD country I can think of for a long time. Well, outside of recessions anyway, like the most recent Repub disaster here in the US.
 
Auto industry is apposed to elimination of the tax credit.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20171106/OEM05/171109874/auto-industry-mobilizes-save-ev-tax-credit
Lobbyists here quickly huddled to figure out how to save the tax credit, which the industry views as critical to promoting commercial adoption of electric vehicle technology.
"Tax credits are an important customer benefit that can help accelerate the acceptance of electric vehicles. Because General Motors believes in an all-electric future, we will work with Congress to explore ways to maintain this incentive," GM said in a statement.
Based on past experience with congress, what is most likely is the tax credit does not get repealed, at least not so quickly. Will have a better idea once we see the senate version of the bill. I'm just a bill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFroMQlKiag
https://pjmedia.com/trending/tax-bill-trouble-senate/
No doubt, Trump's leadership skills will be fully tested before a tax reform package passes Congress.
 
Sorry as scenes of people lining up to buy $1200 iPhones they can't afford on time play out while Tim Cook holds the profits offshore I'm just not buying any of it. It's only a giveaway if you assume first that all wealth is property of the state. Just because somebody else has money and I don't doesn't mean it's morally right to elect people to take it from them and give it to me.
Ironically one of the two places with higher corporate tax rates than here is Puerto Rico. How's that working out for them.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Looks like somebody's been studying zero sum equations.
Try this little experiment some time: Make a water balloon with a latex glove and squeeze one of the fingers. Then go back and think harder about things that *sound* good, like $15 minimum wage and the third highest corporate tax rate in the world.
My concern about sharp increases in the minimum wage is that they may make job creation more difficult, though this may be less of a concern when the unemployment rate is low (and there would tend to be wage inflation anyway). At least for the US, I'm not sure how much of a problem high corporate tax rates actually are. If companies are growing and investing their profits in R&D, expansion, and in their workers, then they shouldn't owe a great deal in taxes. That said, exceptionally high tax rates will tend to discourage free enterprise; people and companies need to feel that success will be rewarded.

In general, putting more money in the pockets of low and middle income earners has the greatest stimulatory effect on the economy because those individuals are most likely to spend the money and thus circulate it back into the economy. Yes, it's true that high income earners generally pay a lot more in taxes, but their success depends on a functioning economy. Payroll taxes are quite regressive, so I think it would make sense to reduce the payroll tax rate and simultaneously increase or eliminate the income cap.

While I think the EV tax credit needs to remain in place for now, I do like the idea of eliminating a number of deductions while increasing the standard deduction. This should tend to make federal taxes simpler and more fair. Why should taxpayers be forced to subsidize mortgages on expensive homes, for example?
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Just because somebody else has money and I don't doesn't mean it's morally right to elect people to take it from them and give it to me.

Your understanding of taxation in a civilized society is pretty elementary.
 
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
I'll wait as long as safely possible, but try to keep in mind that the EV tax credit is low hanging fruit for chopping. There will be only modest opposition, and even that will only serve to make it more enticing, as it will come from the Liberals the Republicans want to hurt most. Compared with things like mortgage interest deductions and state tax deductions, the EV credit is a relative no-brainer to cut, and fairly politically safe as well.
True, but the giveaway to the corporate world is the substance of the proposed tax law. If that fails, the entire bill will fail. So do yourself a favor and stop trying to convince anybody whether the EV tax credit should stay, and focus your efforts on the unfunded, massive corporate giveaway at everybody's expense.

I don't know if you are mistaken about what I do and don't want, but this is an EV forum and I'm talking about the part of the tax bill that most directly affects EV drivers. I'm well aware of the corporate giveaways, and am opposed to them. I also consider myself a Socialist, and have since I saw Michael Harrington give a lecture at Cornell in the Seventies. This is mynissanleaf.com, however, not thenation.com.
 
LeftieBiker said:
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
I'll wait as long as safely possible, but try to keep in mind that the EV tax credit is low hanging fruit for chopping. There will be only modest opposition, and even that will only serve to make it more enticing, as it will come from the Liberals the Republicans want to hurt most. Compared with things like mortgage interest deductions and state tax deductions, the EV credit is a relative no-brainer to cut, and fairly politically safe as well.
True, but the giveaway to the corporate world is the substance of the proposed tax law. If that fails, the entire bill will fail. So do yourself a favor and stop trying to convince anybody whether the EV tax credit should stay, and focus your efforts on the unfunded, massive corporate giveaway at everybody's expense.

I don't know if you are mistaken about what I do and don't want, but this is an EV forum and I'm talking about the part of the tax bill that most directly affects EV drivers. I'm well aware of the corporate giveaways, and am opposed to them. I also consider myself a Socialist, and have since I saw Michael Harrington give a lecture at Cornell in the Seventies. This is mynissanleaf.com, however, not thenation.com.
You are succumbing to the Repub playbook by agonizing over a gnat and ignoring the elephant in the room. Save the EV credit by getting people to realize that the bill is against their interests.

99% of the populace could not care less about the EV credit, but they should consider that they are being asked to fund a massive corporate giveaway.
 
If you can't understand why I'm "agonizing" over the EV tax credit on an EV forum, when I'm looking to lease an EV, then I guess you aren't nearly as clever as I thought. I don't need lectures on political activism after 40 years of being involved in it. You have no idea what I have or haven't done to oppose the American Right, and I don't plan on listing it here, ON A NISSAN LEAF FORUM.
 
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