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BenTheRighteous

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
62
Location
Raleigh, NC
So my wife and I bought our Leaf new back in February. At the time, it was an experiment - we weren't sure it would meet our needs, but we needed another car and at least we still had a 2nd vehicle (ICE) that we could use if the Leaf wasn't what we hoped it would be.

Well it turns out that we totally love it. So much, in fact, that we're thinking about selling our remaining ICE vehicle in favor of buying a 2nd Leaf, and totally ditching gas forever. Especially since we're eligible for the $10K discount - if you can get a brand new car for $15K, why not get two, right?

However, I'm a little apprehensive. I'm sure 2 Leafs would cover our daily driving needs with no problem. We're especially lucky to live in Raleigh, a city that has a fairly well-developed charging infrastructure - but as soon as you leave the city limits, that infrastructure effectively disappears. Any trip to the beach (140 miles east) or mountains (280 miles west) would require renting a car, although admittedly we don't do either often. Probably once a year.

Even a trip to the next big city over, Greensboro, would require some planning (80mi interstate). A trip to visit family in Charlotte (160mi interstate) probably couldn't happen without renting.

Or, if it ever became necessary to evacuate for some reason (unlikely, but not impossible), I feel like we would be totally screwed.

So the options are:
1. Take the plunge and buy a 2nd Leaf, rent a car a few times a year, tell myself the cost is offset by gas savings
2. Buy a Volt and try to stay in EV mode, still have gas option for long distance (but we test drove one and hated it, much too small and I've never driven a borderline-subcompact that handles like a boat before)
3. Do nothing, keep 1 Leaf and 1 ICE car

I really want to like option 1, and I'd want to move on it before the $10K off promotion expires at the end of the month. But I can't shake the feeling that it's a little too crazy, even for me.

I'm purposefully excluding the option of waiting for the 2018 Leaf because I don't have details on range/capacity, and even if I did, I don't think it would meaningfully solve any problems. (There's still no destination charging at the beach or mountains, interstate trips would still require careful planning).

There's also the financial aspect - I'm not wild about having 2 cars whose values are going to plummet as time goes on, even with the discount.

Thoughts, opinions, and experiences are more than welcome. Convince me I'm not nuts. Thanks!
 
4. Wait for the PHEV version of the Hyundai IONIQ which is due out later this year. The regular (non-plug-in) and full electric versions should be available now if you want a bit of a preview.
5. Look into other PHEVs already on the market including the Ford Fusion Energi, Ford C-Max Energi, Toyota Prius Prime, Hyundai Sonata Plug-in Hybrid, Kia Optima Plug-in Hybrid, Chrysler Pacifica Plug-in Hybrid. Full list from the EPA at: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=noform&year1=2016&year2=2018&vtype=Plug-in+Hybrid&srchtyp=newAfv&pageno=1&sortBy=Comb&tabView=0&rowLimit=10
6. If you really have money to burn, look into a VIA-converted GM truck or SUV. New trucks/SUVs equipped with the 4.3L V-6 are shipped directly to VIA who removes the transmission, and replaces it with a generator and electric motor and adds a battery and associated electronics. It retains the full GM warranty on parts that were originally installed by GM and you can order and service the trucks directly from selected GM dealers. Not cheap; expect to pay double the cost of a normal one. http://www.viamotors.com/
 
What am I missing here? I just don't understand. Your area is literally covered with L2's and DCQC's. The 30 KWh Leaf should work pretty easily for 150-200 mi trips, acceptable for 200-300 mi trips. You should try SE WA State. ;) I did 300 mi to Astoria, WA in one day in a 4 yo 2011 SL with 3.8 KW charger (yes, we used DCQC but had a 90 mi jump that required L2). Before that I did a 250 mi day that included a 120 mi jump only with L1 (that was SLOW). Finally we are getting "some" infrastructure, but it will be SEVEN YEARS coming soon!

Worst case, buy from Carolina Nissan in Burlington, Deacon Jones Nissan in Goldsburo, Lee Nissan in Wilson (or any other dealership on a route that you want to travel). Make sure that they agree to let you charge anytime, that way you'll have a dealership that you have a relationship with.

However, with all of that said, I would just wait until the next-gen EVs are well established (2018). That way you can choose between Bolt, Leaf 2, Tesla 3, or others for your longer trips. A 60 KWh EV with DCQC will make those 300-400 mi road trips a breeze, especially compared to the 24 KWh Leaf. If you're worried about the $10K incentive, well, ask yourself if charging en route a couple of times a year (assume 10 hr each way, or maybe an extra hotel stay) is worth the $10K savings. Of course, the 60 KWh will probably cost $10-$20K more than the 30 KWh Leaf, so that might be as much as a $30K difference.
 
BenTheRighteous said:
So my wife and I bought our Leaf new back in February. At the time, it was an experiment - we weren't sure it would meet our needs, but we needed another car and at least we still had a 2nd vehicle (ICE) that we could use if the Leaf wasn't what we hoped it would be.

Well it turns out that we totally love it. So much, in fact, that we're thinking about selling our remaining ICE vehicle in favor of buying a 2nd Leaf, and totally ditching gas forever. Especially since we're eligible for the $10K discount - if you can get a brand new car for $15K, why not get two, right?

However, I'm a little apprehensive. I'm sure 2 Leafs would cover our daily driving needs with no problem. We're especially lucky to live in Raleigh, a city that has a fairly well-developed charging infrastructure - but as soon as you leave the city limits, that infrastructure effectively disappears. Any trip to the beach (140 miles east) or mountains (280 miles west) would require renting a car, although admittedly we don't do either often. Probably once a year.

Even a trip to the next big city over, Greensboro, would require some planning (80mi interstate). A trip to visit family in Charlotte (160mi interstate) probably couldn't happen without renting.

Or, if it ever became necessary to evacuate for some reason (unlikely, but not impossible), I feel like we would be totally screwed.

So the options are:
1. Take the plunge and buy a 2nd Leaf, rent a car a few times a year, tell myself the cost is offset by gas savings
2. Buy a Volt and try to stay in EV mode, still have gas option for long distance (but we test drove one and hated it, much too small and I've never driven a borderline-subcompact that handles like a boat before)
3. Do nothing, keep 1 Leaf and 1 ICE car

I really want to like option 1, and I'd want to move on it before the $10K off promotion expires at the end of the month. But I can't shake the feeling that it's a little too crazy, even for me.

I'm purposefully excluding the option of waiting for the 2018 Leaf because I don't have details on range/capacity, and even if I did, I don't think it would meaningfully solve any problems. (There's still no destination charging at the beach or mountains, interstate trips would still require careful planning).

There's also the financial aspect - I'm not wild about having 2 cars whose values are going to plummet as time goes on, even with the discount.

Thoughts, opinions, and experiences are more than welcome. Convince me I'm not nuts. Thanks!


Wow! TLDR!!!

I LOVE being mostly gasoline free! I not only have a 2013 Nissan Leaf that I mostly drive (to and from my work, in city tasks, etc.) but also a 2006 Grand Caravan (plates say Baby II) for the long camping and kayaking trips! Which I am out today getting prepared for this weekend's annual float trip with a group of Family Of Choicers or FOCers!! Filled up Baby II's tank (the most gasoline I've bought all MONTH on the way home from buying a 4x8 foot sheet of 3/4 ply to flatten out the sleeping surface in the back. Chrysler was experimenting with their Stow-n-Go rear seating and it was sleep-UNfriendly lumpy back there!

John Kuthe...
 
If you decide against the occasional rental option then your choices are Tesla or PHEV.
Our second car is the Prius Prime* but it will swapped out for a Tesla fairly soon.

* I paid $25,500 and will receive state and federal tax credits.
 
@RonDawg - You're right, there are a bunch of hybrids I didn't consider. My thought is that if I'm going to replace my ICE with a BEV/PHEV, I'd like to not use gas at all getting to/from work, which is a 34 mile round trip. Currently, the Volt is the only PHEV that could meet that criteria, based on this, and I think none of the incoming hybrids such as the Ioniq would qualify either.

@Reddy - You're right, if we were dedicated, we could probably get anywhere in the state - but I don't think using L1/L2 charging as an intermediate stop on a trip is a good solution. So I'm mostly concerned about the distance between QC stations. For example, if we were headed to Myrtle Beach, SC, there is a 107-mile gap with no good charging from Fayetteville to Wilmington. If the destination is Topsail Beach, NC, there's no QC on the whole 139 mile stretch - just an out-of-the-way L2 station in Clinton NC, and no destination charging. Charlotte NC is a little better, with roughly 70 miles between QCs, but it's all interstate. Could we make these trips? Theoretically yes, but if even a single charging station is malfunctioning, we're stranded. That's what worries me, and why I'd rather fall back on ICE for those trips.

@JohnKuthe - TL;DR, I totally agree...
 
BenTheRighteous said:
@RonDawg - You're right, there are a bunch of hybrids I didn't consider. My thought is that if I'm going to replace my ICE with a BEV/PHEV, I'd like to not use gas at all getting to/from work, which is a 34 mile round trip. Currently, the Volt is the only PHEV that could meet that criteria, based on this, and I think none of the incoming hybrids such as the Ioniq would qualify either.
I understand the all or none desire but cutting your petrol consumption 90% is a big deal

I use our Prius Prime for a 90 mile work commute and average about 110 mpg. Since I usually get ~ 35 miles per charge your commute would be petrol free in my hands on most days and perhaps 5 miles of petrol use during bad weather. That would work out to ~ 700 mpg for the year.
 
How many EV miles do you need for daily trips? The older Prius PHEV only has 12-15 miles of EV range, but it's a great car for longer trips, and works well for hauling stuff, too. If you want to buy used, and hate the Volt, look at the PIP.
 
BenTheRighteous said:
@RonDawg - You're right, there are a bunch of hybrids I didn't consider. My thought is that if I'm going to replace my ICE with a BEV/PHEV, I'd like to not use gas at all getting to/from work, which is a 34 mile round trip. Currently, the Volt is the only PHEV that could meet that criteria, based on this, and I think none of the incoming hybrids such as the Ioniq would qualify either.

If you have charging at work, even just 120 volts, all the listed PHEVs would give you that ability. The Pacifica if driven gently might make it round trip.
 
I too am weighing back and forth the idea of going all EV or not.

In my situation I bought a used 2013 Leaf. That way the depreciation will be a lot less. Since my wife and I only need to drive one car we hardly ever drive the spare ICE sitting in the driveway. We have done as much as a 380 mile round trip in the Leaf without needing a tow-truck here in western Colorado where the charging infrastructure is practically non-existent. It does take more planning and time. But honestly I'm also sick of driving for hours on end in my ICE vehicles.

My suggestion is to take the Leaf, and just look for interesting sites along the way where you can charge at the same time. For an example, my wife loves shopping malls. So when in Grand Junction I chose to charge close to the shopping mall. The Leaf was all charged up by the time she was finished looking at stuff at Best Buy (because actually I made the mistake of arriving there on a Sunday after the mall had closed). At another town we spent the night with some old friends. They let us charge all night off the 120V and didn't even allow me to pay then for their electric use. We had a great time with them. In Montrose we stopped and walked clear down to Dairy Queen together and did some site seeing. We arrived at our destination and our home very relaxed.

Or have you considered keeping the ICE for a little while longer until the second generation EV's (Bolt, Tesla 3, Leaf 2) have had the chance to prove themselves? Patience is a virtue.
 
BenTheRighteous said:
@Reddy - You're right, if we were dedicated, we could probably get anywhere in the state - but I don't think using L1/L2 charging as an intermediate stop on a trip is a good solution. So I'm mostly concerned about the distance between QC stations. For example, if we were headed to Myrtle Beach, SC, there is a 107-mile gap with no good charging from Fayetteville to Wilmington. If the destination is Topsail Beach, NC, there's no QC on the whole 139 mile stretch - just an out-of-the-way L2 station in Clinton NC, and no destination charging. Charlotte NC is a little better, with roughly 70 miles between QCs, but it's all interstate. Could we make these trips? Theoretically yes, but if even a single charging station is malfunctioning, we're stranded. That's what worries me, and why I'd rather fall back on ICE for those trips.
Well, if you're doing this 4-5 times a year it would be different, but I thought you meant a once a year vacation (which to me means driving slower, enjoying the time, and spending days, perhaps stopping along the way). Sorry, I made the mistake of seeing the orange marker at Warsaw as DCQC and not Tesla SC. Big mistake on my part. Also, I don't know the area and I don't like busy areas (which I'm assuming Myrtle Beach must be because I've heard of it). Here's an alternative: travel via Goldsboro DCQC and overnight at the Hampton Inn in Jacksonville (or plug in and have a leisurely lunch at one of the nearby restaurants), then down to the Wilmington DCQC. That route has easy 50-70 mi jumps and since you should have the 6.6 KW charger, you can get nearly 50% over lunch. I've done 65 mi RT at 25F with a 2 hr show in the middle to cold soak the battery and car, so I know you can do 70 mi in the summer without out much trouble especially with the newer 30 KWh battery. Again, decide how much that extra $10-20K is worth during a vacation trip. Since I can't get out of town anymore with my 50 mi 2011 Leaf, I can afford to wait around to see what happens in 2018 (or 3-lease returns in 2021). My 25 yo ICE is paid off and just sitting there waiting for the trip that never comes. Anyway, different strokes for different folks.
 
If you really only need more range once a year (the trip to the beach or to the mountains that you mentioned), just rent a car for those times or ask a friend or relative to swap cars with you - they would probably have fun driving a Leaf for a week anyways!

Having said that, you seem averse to using L2 charging while on the road. Using a Leaf as a longer distance vehicle requires patience and a willingness to expect the unexpected (ie if a DCQC is down). If you can't live with unexpected "surprises", then I would keep your ICE for a few more years and buy a used 2018 Leaf, Bolt, Model 3 (or some other longer range BEV) a few years down the road.
 
BenTheRighteous said:
... Especially since we're eligible for the $10K discount - if you can get a brand new car for $15K, why not get two, right?

BenTheRighteous said:
...Buy a Volt and try to stay in EV mode, still have gas option for long distance (but we test drove one and hated it, much too small and I've never driven a borderline-subcompact that handles like a boat before)

I've been tempted by the discount on the new 2017 as well. As a satisfied Gen 1 Volt owner, I couldn't ever see trading in the Volt on a Leaf, though. The Volt really is a surprisingly good trip car if you don't need the interior space - specifically in the backseat. All other dimensions are similar enough to the Leaf for my use. Also, I'm not completely sold on the 8yr/100k extension of the battery degradation warranty being sufficient. I took a calculated risk on my used Leaf that I would be able to use it for a couple of years until the battery was insufficient and then pass it to my kids who will be able to benefit from what a degraded Leaf can still provide. I don't have the same concerns with the Volt, as many are well over 100,000 miles and approaching more lofty numbers.

BenTheRighteous said:
There's also the financial aspect - I'm not wild about having 2 cars whose values are going to plummet as time goes on, even with the discount.
With the Leaf and Volt, I'm living it, LOL. That's another reason I can't justify doing any moves to procure a 2017 Leaf. The lions share of depreciation has already been realized on what I have.
 
SageBrush said:
If you decide against the occasional rental option then your choices are Tesla or PHEV.
Our second car is the Prius Prime* but it will swapped out for a Tesla fairly soon.

* I paid $25,500 and will receive state and federal tax credits.

To follow up on SageBrush's comment a little bit - I have a three car household and we have already replaced the two daily drivers with Nissan Leaves, but the trip car is still an ICE. However, that is changing since I have already pre-ordered the Tesla Model 3. If you are worried about either the range of the 30 kwh Leaf or the availability of the CHAdeMO infrastructure you only have two options: a longer range EV, or a PHEV. Both have drawbacks and advantages. The longer range EV will be more expensive than the current deals on the 2017 Leaf. The PHEV will also be more expensive and if you rarely use the ICE you will need to put fuel stabilizer in the tank to keep it running*. Either option will be more expensive so it comes down to the cost savings over additional costs incurred (financial [rental car] or temporal [stopping at more chargers]). This is not something that has a single answer for everyone. I have looked at where we drive, where we stopped for meals, how often we went beyond the 2013 Leaf's range, and what rental cars cost in my area, and determined that a Tesla Model 3 will be the cheapest option. Now, your situation will be different, and it sounds like you have already done some homework, but you can't do too much planning before a decision like this. So if you have historical records (old credit card statements, gas logs, receipts, etc) that you can use as a guide for where you have been and what you have done, that research can give you some better numbers to use in the calculations. Now, the most optimal solution for you may not be the one that is the cheapest, but doing the research will help evaluate the options.


* Time frames very, but many people recommend using fuel stabilizer if the tank will not be completely used within 90 days of filling. Here is a cut sheet I found from BP saying that fuel should not be stored in equipment (a car) for more than one month: http://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/products-services/fuels/opal-fuel/Opal-factsheet-storagehandling.pdf.
 
alozzy said:
If you really only need more range once a year (the trip to the beach or to the mountains that you mentioned), just rent a car for those times or ask a friend or relative to swap cars with you - they would probably have fun driving a Leaf for a week anyways!

Having said that, you seem averse to using L2 charging while on the road. Using a Leaf as a longer distance vehicle requires patience and a willingness to expect the unexpected (ie if a DCQC is down). If you can't live with unexpected "surprises", then I would keep your ICE for a few more years and buy a used 2018 Leaf, Bolt, Model 3 (or some other longer range BEV) a few years down the road.
My mobile EVSE is the upgraded 20A/240V courtesy of evseupgrade.com.

I may never use it, but knowing that RV campgrounds are a readily available safety valve seemed worth the cost.
 
Thanks all for the comments - really. Even if I don't call you out by name, I read and appreciate your input.

I'm thinking pretty much the same thing that Reddy said, that even though the 2018 and later Leafs are going to have increased capacity and range, they're going to have an increased price to match. When the battery went from 24kWh to 30kWh, MSRP also increased by $2,000 (roughly). So if I can fudge the math a bit and say 3kWh is worth $1,000, then a 40kWh leaf S would have an MSRP of $34,000, or a 60kWh leaf would go for $41,000-ish.

That's totally back-of-the-napkin, but that's a huge difference between a subsidized 2017 and a full-price 2018. And with the $10k incentive disappearing at the end of the month, I feel like the time to buy is now or never.

I'm thinking yeah, I'd probably only ever "need" an ICE car once or twice a year, which I could rent or hopefully borrow. I was just using some of the more likely scenarios as examples, and even of those, most are probably doable with the Leaf with a bit of extra effort as has been helpfully pointed out.

So, although I'm still not 100% convinced that this is a super-great idea, I think the incentive is enough to push me to try it (which is probably exactly what Nissan is hoping for, so mission accomplished on that one, Nissan team!). I get to save a bunch compared to buying a PHEV (even used) or next-gen BEV, on top of not wasting money on gas - both of which will pay for a decent number of rentals or hotel nights if necessary - and I get the warm and fuzzy feeling that it's better for the environment too. That's got to be a win, right?

SageBrush said:
My mobile EVSE is the upgraded 20A/240V courtesy of EVSEUpgrade.com.

I may never use it, but knowing that RV campgrounds are a readily available safety valve seemed worth the cost.
The same thought occurred to me. I will probably spring for the upgrade sooner or later also.
 
Just my opinion --
I would not try to mangle the LEAF into a long distance car.

While it is doable, it is likely to be at best an annoyance. More importantly though, while the LEAF battery degradation can be managed for many years when the LEAF is doing local duties, it will relatively quickly degrade to the point where it cannot be used for long distance chores and then the discounted price is not so attractive if it leads to early replacement.
 
tirianw said:
The PHEV will also be more expensive and if you rarely use the ICE you will need to put fuel stabilizer in the tank to keep it running*.

I don't know if all PHEVs do this, but the Chevy Volt has a "maintenance mode" that will automatically run the ICE if it hasn't been used for a while, just to prevent the fuel from going stale. The Volt's gas tank only holds 8.9 gallons as well, but there's nothing preventing you from keeping far less than that if you really don't use the ICE much.

On my previous ICEV (Audi A3) I would go months without refilling, and it never caused me problems despite never adding a fuel stablizer. I just made sure the car was driven once a month for at least 20 miles.
 
@SageBrush:

My mobile EVSE is the upgraded 20A/240V courtesy of EVSEUpgrade.com. I may never use it, but knowing that RV campgrounds are a readily available safety valve seemed worth the cost

Yup, I purchased a portable Zencar 32A EVSE for that flexibility too. With adapters I have made, I can charge at full speed (6.6 kw) at an RV park via a 14-50 outlet, or charge at 125V@24A via a TT30 outlet, or even trickle charge at 120V@12A. I agree, it's worth the cost ($400 US) to have the flexibility to charge at RV parks no matter what kind of hookup they offer.

Also, I use the Zencar as my home EVSE too - it's plugged into a 14-30 outlet in my garage for 240V@24A charging since my main panel is only 100A and I didn't want to push it with a 50A circuit. I just removed the unused neutral pin so I can plug into any 14-xx receptacle.
 
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