Public EVSE Etiquette - True EV vs. Volt

This was an interesting situation today, both spaces were taken at the Kohls L2 EVSE in Lakeland. So I pulled into the space next to the Fiat 500e, making three cars there. At first I didn't know the Fiat was electric, until I saw the lady pulling the L1 charger out of the hatchback area.

She obviously was not completely knowledgeable regarding this EVSE, so I got out and started talking to her. I told her there was no L1, and she was disappointed. She said that she could only charge on 120V, which was surprising. She meant, that is all she could do with her Fiat supplied L1 charger, but I thought she was talking about the car. I found out that her car could do L2, but there was a further problem.

She had just bought the car in Orlando, probably 60 miles away, and had found this charger on her app when she realized she wasn't going to make it to Tampa, another 35 miles or so. She seemed somewhat surprised, as it was supposed to be able to do it according to the dealership where she just bought it earlier today.

So, I told her she was in danger of getting a Low Battery Warning. This she already knew about, and said it had already come on. She had 13 miles indicated remaining. It was also starting to get dark, and she needed to get back to Tampa.

In the next spot was a Volt, happily charging. We didn't know if he got there five minutes ago or three hours ago. I said that she could wait, as the owner might come out soon. But I also said that it could be four hours, as that is the Kohl's limit now that others have taken advantage of their EVSE and were charging overnight on a regular basis.

There was another EVSE in the downtown garage, about 5 miles away, which she did not know how to get to. So I ended up leading the way to that EVSE, it was open, she managed to use her Chargepoint card, and had a couple of hours to charge before being to make it to Tampa.

So, the real question I have, as a matter of EV etiquette, in such a situation, would it have been proper to unplug the charging Volt?

It is a debate in this situation of convenience vs. necessity.

The Volt owner didn't know the situation, he/she might have been completely polite and said it would be fine to unplug. But the owner wasn't there to ask. The truth is though, I don't think they were in Kohl's either, which is technically a requirement, but we didn't spend the time to go in and page him/her.

Just as easily the owner could have been irate, and posting about the selfish EV owners who think they have more right to the plug than the Volt owners do. The lady shouldn't have let the situation become critical, but she was misled and truly didn't know, and was far from being able to get home. I wasn't happy either that she was down to 8 miles showing on the LBW when we got to the downtown EVSE, as it wasn't doing the new batteries any good.

That kind of situation I would have unplugged the volt. We always "check in" with a text number if we are just opportunity charging. We also have a card we can put on the dash with our text number if it is a no check in kind of place. We can usually be at the car in 5 to 10 minutes if a needy user needed the station.

I wouldn't hesitate to unplug a hybrid in that kind of situation.

webeleafowners said:

That kind of situation I would have unplugged the volt. We always "check in" with a text number if we are just opportunity charging..

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Yes, it would have been great to have been able to contact them. I think she would have still been there charging when the Volt owner came back, and been able to explain, but there was still the worry that they would be upset.

The answer is no. You cannot unplug somebody else just because they are inconveniencing you.

It's first come, first served, and follow any posted rules. No made up stuff.

What did the lights in the dash show? If the car was full or almost full then it might have been reasonable to unplug.

This is a real problem with chargers. There aren't enough of them in each location. Instead of 1 or 2 there should be more like 10. I'd go so far as to say this is a bigger issue than number of locations. When you go to a charger you want to know you can charge.

Personally I wouldn't even charge in a Volt without some way of contacting me. But a lot of Volt and PHEV owners probably don't realize they're being rude.

Nagorak said:

What did the lights in the dash show? If the car was full or almost full then it might have been reasonable to unplug.

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Gen 1 Volt does NOT give any indication of fullness via lights. Solid green = charging. Flashing green = done.

Gen 2 (2016+) Volt is the opposite:
flashing green = charging
solid green = done

Apparently the blink rate of the green light is related to the fullness on Gen 2.

davewill said:

The answer is no. You cannot unplug somebody else just because they are inconveniencing you.

It's first come, first served, and follow any posted rules. No made up stuff.

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There is an inconsiderate Leafer on my local Leaf FB group who basically will unplug PHEVs to plug in his Leaf because the PHEVs don't need the electricity to get home. He doesn't care that it's still charging and the honk alarms (if left enabled) are "music to his ears".

Judging by some of his other posts/replies, he is a hardcore EV purist, to an extreme.

I'd only unplug a PHEV if it were a truly Dire situation, like the prospect of being stranded in frigid weather. I'd also leave a note with $20 inside. The exception would be if a charge was really needed (but not a dire need) and you could tell the PHEV was charged. Then a similar note, sans $20.

As we start seeing more and more PHEVs(particularly the Prime which I believe will take off) I'm thinking this could be more of an issue. Someone with a EV who really needs a charge might not be able to because the chargers could be in use by PHEVs that just want to save some money on gas. Not that I'm against that, if I bought a PHEV I'd want to do the same thing but if it means a EV driver who has no other choice has to wait, well I think the EV should get first priority.
The problem is almost all EVs/PHEVs have a different way of telling how full they might be, some like the Leaf start at no lights and work their way up and others work their way down as they charge, makes it so anyone other than a owner of that vehicle wouldn't really know if the battery were almost full or almost empty.
I'm thinking the etiquette should be EVs first priority, even if a PHEV gets their first, after all a EV has no other choice other than plug in, a PHEV could just add more gas to their tank if need by. Of course if no one is using the charger then I'm fine with PHEVs using it and truthfully in my area most chargers go unused, the only other vehicle I've seen use the chargers at my local HyVee has been 2 Volts, and because they have 4 charging spots I just went to another one.

If I was really stuck and needed the range I would unplug the hybrid and charge my vehicle to max 5 miles more than I needed.
I would also wait at my vehicle the entire time and face the consequences in person.
Upon completion I would restart the hybrid vehicle to charge.

If there was another location I would attempt that first.

And then you have those with EVs, because of the convenient locations of charging stations to mall entrances,
who decide that they can simulate a charging situation by just connecting without actually charging. That's obviously
worst than those that aren't there at their vehicle when the charging process is complete. In either case, I have zero
tolerance for those situations and will generally wait about 5 minutes and then do a disconnect. I'm more tolerant
if the EV is actually charging without the driver being there and would wait 15 - 20 minutes before disconnecting
or just finding another location if possible.

I would treat this like any other cutting in line situation. It's rude, but sometimes circumstances force you to be rude. She could leave a note, or since she would probably be just waiting when the volt owner returned, she could explain at that time. She probably was taking electricity worth only a gallon of gas or so from the volt, so she could offer them $5 when they return.

In general, though, PHV should have just as much right to public charging as any EV IMO.

What about if the other vehicle had been a pure EV? I would guess that most unattended public charging is convenience more than necessity, so you could still cut in line if you're in an emergency situtation. It's possible the Volt had no gas in the car and needed the charge just as much as she did, but it's less likely.

For the most part I agree with those that say unplug the Volt in an emergency situation. If someone is travelling and will be stuck without doing something, then they should take the plug and either stay with car or at least leave a note with phone number in consideration of their actions taken. I believe any PHEV driver would be understanding of the situation.

I would have a problem if the "emergency" was someone local who doesn't have charging available at home or is a known frequent flier monopolizing free public options. I don't have a problem with taking advantage of free local options, but in that case you should wait your turn EVEN IF you can use 6.6kW and the Volt etc can only use 3.3kW.

This from a Volt and Leaf driver.

Note unplugging someones car may result that user being immediately notified via a email. I know whenever I unplug my Leaf from a Chargepoint charger I immediately get an email. If I do it with first swiping my card it just tells me how many Kws were added, if I just unplug my car without first swiping the card the email says my car was unexpectedly unplugged. Just saying if you do unplug someone it's possible you may see them shortly, good or bad

jjeff said:

Note unplugging someones car may result that user being immediately notified via a email.
...
Just saying if you do unplug someone it's possible you may see them shortly, good or bad

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Yes, I've run into that exact situation, her LEAF had finished charging, Chargepoint was in the process of notifying her, I came along, unplugged it because it was finished (all 3 LEDs still lit), and plugged mine in. And yes, she was there in a few minutes looking worried and upset. I had left a note on her windshield, but also talked to her. It turned out Chargepoint sent the unauthorized unplug notice first, so she was worried. After talking she turned out to be very nice, and we corresponded for a long time, until she turned the LEAF back in, and she also moved far north.

And all the replies are great to hear.

One interesting choice I hadn't thought of was to leave a bit of money, or at least if not actual cash offer a contact to the Volt owner to reimburse them for the missed charging value. Now, this would be eliminated if/when all public stations charge for usage. Not that I'd like that situation either, just observing the results. So that to me seems the best alternative.

Now, she was able to get to the alternative EVSE, so the result was the Volt owner never knew, I and my family were happy enough to help her, but she wasted probably 20 minutes worth of charging time while it was getting dark, and being far from home, and she drove on Low Battery from 13 indicated to 8 indicated. I don't know how much damage that could have done, obviously not much, but I'm sure it didn't help the batteries either.

I did also find out about the Volt dash indicators from a previous, inconsiderate Volt owner who parked for over four hours to get one hour of charging. And that person, along with the Volt owner who was simultaneously sitting at the EVSE, taking up a space charging while the engine was running (I never understood how that could happen), gives others some justification when they're saying the Volt isn't an EV and shouldn't be charging because every charge is for convenience.

So now, even better than the dash indicators, I think it is possible to see on the Chargepoint EVSE when any vehicle is charging, as you can see the little lines going down the display. I hadn't really noticed that if you're finished the display doesn't show the lines moving. At least I think that's how the Chargepoint EVSE works.

Oh, and I told her, don't leave for two hours, not a minute before, or you might not make it home. I also showed her where there was another EVSE in Plant City. When we got home an hour and a half later my daughter wanted to bet she was gone, I thought she would still be there, but sure enough, she had left and thank goodness I hadn't bet. I did see awhile later that the Plant City EVSE was in use, so I'm thinking she ended up stopping there, but at that time of night I wouldn't have been very happy sitting there for another hour.

As a Volt driver (and former Leaf driver), I would say unplug the Volt.
That is of course assuming it is a dire situation and you really NEED the juice to get home. Leave a note explaining yourself, perhaps offer to pay for the PHEV's charge when you depart (if they're still there).
I also believe ALL L2 charge stations should have a nominal fee to discourage squatters..
Assuming the L2 station was not free, likely the cost of driving on gasoline over electricity for a short distance is very small.

One of the main reasons I do lug a gasoline engine around with me everywhere I go is precisely so I don't have to deal with public L2 charging.. but that's just me. I would think the extra hours for a Leaf driver (especially in the evening) outweighs the pennies saved by the PHEV driver and the loss of a few fractions of a MPG for their lifetime average... but again, just my thoughts on the matter.

P.S. Not that it matters, but Volt2 does blink 1-4 times proportional to SOC while charging.

GregH said:

As a Volt driver (and former Leaf driver), I would say unplug the Volt.
That is of course assuming it is a dire situation and you really NEED the juice to get home. Leave a note explaining yourself, perhaps offer to pay for the PHEV's charge when you depart (if they're still there).
I also believe ALL L2 charge stations should have a nominal fee to discourage squatters..
Assuming the L2 station was not free, likely the cost of driving on gasoline over electricity for a short distance is very small.

One of the main reasons I do lug a gasoline engine around with me everywhere I go is precisely so I don't have to deal with public L2 charging.. but that's just me. I would think the extra hours for a Leaf driver (especially in the evening) outweighs the pennies saved by the PHEV driver and the loss of a few fractions of a MPG for their lifetime average... but again, just my thoughts on the matter.

P.S. Not that it matters, but Volt2 does blink 1-4 times proportional to SOC while charging.

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Thanks for the input from the PHEV side of the fence. I think basic Charge station etiquette should be posted at all stations anyway. I also think that BEV should always take priority. However the reality is most of the time you probably can't even get close to the station so I don't think it is really a big concern. PHEV will be less popular as ranges increase on BEV...maybe not so much for the off road SUV crowd.

sub3marathonman said:

jjeff said:

Note unplugging someones car may result that user being immediately notified via a email.
...
Just saying if you do unplug someone it's possible you may see them shortly, good or bad

Click to expand...

Yes, I've run into that exact situation, her LEAF had finished charging, Chargepoint was in the process of notifying her, I came along, unplugged it because it was finished (all 3 LEDs still lit), and plugged mine in. And yes, she was there in a few minutes looking worried and upset. I had left a note on her windshield, but also talked to her. It turned out Chargepoint sent the unauthorized unplug notice first, so she was worried.

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I haven't read this entire thread but from me using Chargepoint stations at work on most weekdays and having their push notifications and email notifications on, the "charging complete" email and push notification does NOT get sent until about 15 minutes after the station believes the car has stopped drawing power.

The plugout detection emails and push notifications get sent out immediately.

I can only guess the 15 minute delay of the former is by design due to some cars (like the '13+ Leaf) having that 3 bounce behavior when charging to 100% when nearly fully. There's about a 5 minute delay between each bounce. Unfortunately, the graph I quoted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=338038#p338038 is now 404.

When Carwings/NissanConnect was still working for me (haven't paid for the problematic 3G updated TCU yet), the charging complete mails from Chargepoint would always arrive 15 minutes after the charging complete mails from nissanusa.com.

I should clarify.. a BEV that NEEDS A CHARGE TO REACH THEIR DESTINATION should take priority.
A BEV that does NOT *need* a charge is no different from a PHEV and it should be first come first served.
In this case a nominal fee for L2 stations should solve the problem. I've seen Volt drivers sitting in their cars at pay L2 stations and I can't understand that at all.. ?!?!

I would have to say No, If my LEAF was plugged in then my #EVFRISBEE would have been on the dashboard and you'd see my phone number and my Estimated return time. You'd be able to text me to find out when I'd be done.

This is what Angela made up for our two EV's. Here is a front and back shot. Notice the rotating time thingy. We actually put them on the outside of the windshield or on the charge station itself. Their cheap to make.